Warrior General Games

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=477816&pbp_id=5106163

change of possession, we've got a QB with presumably <15 blocking reverse pancake my friend's DE who has 70 strength 100 agility.

Obviously the QB has 70 strength also, and probably 50+ agility. But to be able to pancake a pro league DE, yikes.

Strength and agility I think


+lucky roll

The game is designed based on a simulation, and in any simulation, an extreme random variate will appear with a positive probability. So if the right random number came up, a level 1 Kicker with 10 STR could pancake a level 60 G with 120 STR.

One data point does not make a trend.

Yeah but in this case I'm pretty sure the high strength and agility of the QB played a part in making it possible.

70 strength vs 70 strength
50 agility vs 100 agility
0 blocking vs 10 shed block, change direction, first step
50 speed vs 80 speed

QB has more vision, confidence, etc.

I understand the positive probability part. I don't agree with it though. I think if blocking was a significant part of the pancake formula, that the upper bound on the QBs roll is < lower bound on DE roll, making it impossible.

Could be wrong on the bounded rolls part, however you don't see many anomalies on GLB. Yes, there is a random number generator, but I think every roll is bounded. Else after millions of games, we'd have seen more variance, and we haven't. Find me a level 1 break a level 50 tackle, for example. I'm open to being proven wrong.

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Yeah clearly it was str/agi, and if blocking isn't a major part of pancakes, this isn't unexpected. Just made me wonder how important blocking could be at all, and theorize that maybe it literally means nothing for a pancake. I've never seen evidence of it helping. I think blocking might simply be used in hold/break block rolls, or the initial engaging of a block, etc. And on every tick a block is held, there is another pancake roll, independently, which uses strength, velocity vectors (so a consequence of agility and speed), current morale, etc.

Perhaps the DE is off balance, or perhaps the DE wasn't facing the QB. It would be nice if these players had arrows denoting the direction they're looking in.

i'm pretty sure reverse pancakes and pancakes are not affected by the same stats. If I recall correctly, bort described the interaction has hold block vs break block, reduce the loser's balance based on str differential, if balance drops below x value, fall down. repeat next tick. (the amount the balance drops depends on certain comparison values, like str vs str and heavyweight and whatnot)

The QB is on "defense" in this play, so there's very little reason that his blocking would really matter, since he's getting the break block rolls.

It wasn't a reverse pancake, the QB just disengaged from the DE to go chase the ball carrier. Usually when that happens, within a split second, the blocker will attempt a cut block (and will almost always fail and fall down by themselves). This leads to a lot of confusion about impossible reverse pancakes based on attributes but I assure you your DE didn't get reverse pancaked, though it can look that way.

Originally posted by Jack Del Rio
It wasn't a reverse pancake, the QB just disengaged from the DE to go chase the ball carrier. Usually when that happens, within a split second, the blocker will attempt a cut block (and will almost always fail and fall down by themselves). This leads to a lot of confusion about impossible reverse pancakes based on attributes but I assure you your DE didn't get reverse pancaked, though it can look that way.

i like this answer too. it's generally how I've been thinking about the shrinking dots when the ball passes them. So in this particular case, I agree with Jack Del Rio. But in general, regarding reverse pancakes, i still believe in my earlier post.

Originally posted by Jack Del Rio
It wasn't a reverse pancake, the QB just disengaged from the DE to go chase the ball carrier. Usually when that happens, within a split second, the blocker will attempt a cut block (and will almost always fail and fall down by themselves). This leads to a lot of confusion about impossible reverse pancakes based on attributes but I assure you your DE didn't get reverse pancaked, though it can look that way.

Finally a guy that watches the games and draws reasonable conclusions.

Poor blocking = (missed) cut block attempts all over the place = looks like reverse pancaked all the time.

That DE couldn't block the (pretty strong) QB, so he fell down trying to cut block him.

plus you can just check the box score and see the QB didn't have any pancakes so it couldn't have been a reverse pancake. cut block attempt, yes.