Hey guys Defensive Coordinator here. I think I have a good grasp on the Defensive AI, but have had one problem all year and was wondering if anyone else is experiencing this (I know of a few others). My team runs a Base 3-4 but for Nickel and Dime formations we use the 4-2-5 and 4-1-6, never the 3-3-5. For 3 WR sets I have it set for only the 4-2-5 and 3-4 depending on the down/distance. The problem is, many times the offense will come out in a 3 WR set and we will counter with the 3-3-5 despite there being no such play in my AI. I have double checked my inputs/outputs and even used the AI Tester with exact game scenarios, all saying we should play either the 4-2-5 or 3-4. If it makes any difference I have noticed that this problem usually occurs when we our against the Shotgun 3 WR offense. Anyone else having this problem? I am just puzzled and would like to know why the AI isn't listening!
OttawaShane
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I think that generally when a scheme is called up that you don't want, its because there isn't an offensive input that matches the situation on the field, so the game engine takes over and calls something.
Not to say its not something else, but its a good place to start. Try plugging the exact game situation into the test AI tool and see what pops out.
Not to say its not something else, but its a good place to start. Try plugging the exact game situation into the test AI tool and see what pops out.
Sarg01
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Because 3-4 is your base, you don't need an output to run 3-3-5. You need an output to run 4-2-5. You need to be absolutely certain you have a matching input that has 4-2-5/4-1-6 as outputs. Make sure you have Shotgun with 3 to 3 WR from Any Spot to Any Spot, without a time remaining criteria or a score differential criteria.
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by Sarg01
Because 3-4 is your base, you don't need an output to run 3-3-5. You need an output to run 4-2-5. You need to be absolutely certain you have a matching input that has 4-2-5/4-1-6 as outputs. Make sure you have Shotgun with 3 to 3 WR from Any Spot to Any Spot, without a time remaining criteria or a score differential criteria.
Well I base my Inputs off Down / Distance rather than formation, so I have multiple different 3 WR Inputs.
3 WR - 1st Down (all specs are any/all): Mix of 3-4 and 4-2-5
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 0-4 (all specs are any/all): All 3-4
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 4-7 (all specs are any/all): Mix
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 7-100 (all specs are any/all): All 4-2-5
I could be missing something, but I've doubled checked everything and tried the exact scenarios in the Tester. Thanks again for your help.
Because 3-4 is your base, you don't need an output to run 3-3-5. You need an output to run 4-2-5. You need to be absolutely certain you have a matching input that has 4-2-5/4-1-6 as outputs. Make sure you have Shotgun with 3 to 3 WR from Any Spot to Any Spot, without a time remaining criteria or a score differential criteria.
Well I base my Inputs off Down / Distance rather than formation, so I have multiple different 3 WR Inputs.
3 WR - 1st Down (all specs are any/all): Mix of 3-4 and 4-2-5
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 0-4 (all specs are any/all): All 3-4
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 4-7 (all specs are any/all): Mix
3 WR - 2nd-4th and 7-100 (all specs are any/all): All 4-2-5
I could be missing something, but I've doubled checked everything and tried the exact scenarios in the Tester. Thanks again for your help.
Sarg01
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I assume you're using WR 3 to 3, right? You're not leaving one of the boxes blank, are you?
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by Sarg01
I assume you're using WR 3 to 3, right? You're not leaving one of the boxes blank, are you?
They are all 3-3.
I assume you're using WR 3 to 3, right? You're not leaving one of the boxes blank, are you?
They are all 3-3.
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Last edited Aug 20, 2008 17:28:08
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by foshizzel17
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
GIEFF
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Originally posted by San Diego Chargers
Originally posted by foshizzel17
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
You are right, Chargers.
But it does look as if your inputs just aren't triggering, so the sim reverts to your base settings. Have you tried the defensive AI tester?
Originally posted by foshizzel17
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
You are right, Chargers.
But it does look as if your inputs just aren't triggering, so the sim reverts to your base settings. Have you tried the defensive AI tester?
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by GIEFF
Originally posted by San Diego Chargers
Originally posted by foshizzel17
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
You are right, Chargers.
But it does look as if your inputs just aren't triggering, so the sim reverts to your base settings. Have you tried the defensive AI tester?
Yeah I did, with multiple different scenarios in which the 3-3-5 was used.
Originally posted by San Diego Chargers
Originally posted by foshizzel17
you have overlaps 0-4, 4-7, 7-100 that will screw with the AI. you should set it 0-3.9, 4-6.9, 7-100. If not it will run your basic settings which is 3-4, so your basic nickel would be 3-3-5.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that if two inputs included 4 or 7 yards to go then it would use the one closest to the top.
You are right, Chargers.
But it does look as if your inputs just aren't triggering, so the sim reverts to your base settings. Have you tried the defensive AI tester?
Yeah I did, with multiple different scenarios in which the 3-3-5 was used.
GIEFF
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And you set everything the same? Time, quarter, distance, score, down, everything?
And it pointed you to an output with a 4-2-5?
Can you show a replay where you should have been in the 4-2-5 but were in the 3-3-5 instead?
And it pointed you to an output with a 4-2-5?
Can you show a replay where you should have been in the 4-2-5 but were in the 3-3-5 instead?
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by GIEFF
And you set everything the same? Time, quarter, distance, score, down, everything?
And it pointed you to an output with a 4-2-5?
Can you show a replay where you should have been in the 4-2-5 but were in the 3-3-5 instead?
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=110070&pbp_id=4776996
In the tester I put:
Q1, 791 secs left, Own 45 (should I put Opp referring to the offense's opponent?), 3rd and 4, I'm trailing by 0 pts, Shotgun formation, 3 WR
And I get this:
Matching Input
Input Named: 3 WR - 2nd-4th and Short
Possible Outputs
10% 3-4 - ROLB Zone Blitz (base Cover 2 zone)
40% 3-4 - ROLB Man Blitz (base Cover 2 man)
10% 3-4 - SS Blitz (base Cover 1 man)
40% 3-4 - Weak Blitz (base Cover 1 man)
One thing I noticed, for possible outputs they all say base rather than 3-4. Obviously the 3-4 IS my base, but do you think rather than running the 3-4, it uses my base of 3 lineman but brings in the extra CB? If so then it is just a misunderstanding as I figured that Base would always be 3-4. To be safe I will set all of these to "3-4" rather than "Base" and let you know how it works out. Thanks again for all your help
And you set everything the same? Time, quarter, distance, score, down, everything?
And it pointed you to an output with a 4-2-5?
Can you show a replay where you should have been in the 4-2-5 but were in the 3-3-5 instead?
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=110070&pbp_id=4776996
In the tester I put:
Q1, 791 secs left, Own 45 (should I put Opp referring to the offense's opponent?), 3rd and 4, I'm trailing by 0 pts, Shotgun formation, 3 WR
And I get this:
Matching Input
Input Named: 3 WR - 2nd-4th and Short
Possible Outputs
10% 3-4 - ROLB Zone Blitz (base Cover 2 zone)
40% 3-4 - ROLB Man Blitz (base Cover 2 man)
10% 3-4 - SS Blitz (base Cover 1 man)
40% 3-4 - Weak Blitz (base Cover 1 man)
One thing I noticed, for possible outputs they all say base rather than 3-4. Obviously the 3-4 IS my base, but do you think rather than running the 3-4, it uses my base of 3 lineman but brings in the extra CB? If so then it is just a misunderstanding as I figured that Base would always be 3-4. To be safe I will set all of these to "3-4" rather than "Base" and let you know how it works out. Thanks again for all your help
GIEFF
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Yeah, the replay looks like the ROLB man blitz, but it is definitely the 3-3-5.
I think you're probably on the right track, though - maybe the sim views the 3-3-5 as just the 3-CB subset of the overall 3-4 defense, so lumps it in as part of the base defense for 3-WR sets? Please let me know if actually picking the 3-4 solves that problem.
I think you're probably on the right track, though - maybe the sim views the 3-3-5 as just the 3-CB subset of the overall 3-4 defense, so lumps it in as part of the base defense for 3-WR sets? Please let me know if actually picking the 3-4 solves that problem.
San Diego Chargers
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Originally posted by GIEFF
Yeah, the replay looks like the ROLB man blitz, but it is definitely the 3-3-5.
I think you're probably on the right track, though - maybe the sim views the 3-3-5 as just the 3-CB subset of the overall 3-4 defense, so lumps it in as part of the base defense for 3-WR sets? Please let me know if actually picking the 3-4 solves that problem.
Will do, game tomorrow morning.
Yeah, the replay looks like the ROLB man blitz, but it is definitely the 3-3-5.
I think you're probably on the right track, though - maybe the sim views the 3-3-5 as just the 3-CB subset of the overall 3-4 defense, so lumps it in as part of the base defense for 3-WR sets? Please let me know if actually picking the 3-4 solves that problem.
Will do, game tomorrow morning.
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