Warrior General Games

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Do you think the way natty Pro was set-up in s99 (12 WL teams and 48 Natty Pro teams filled with CPU's) is the ideal structure for GLB?



no. red had an interesting idea to get rid of regional Pro and surely needs to have fewer Pro leagues and get rid of CPU teams.

Originally posted by reddogrw

just consolidate National Pro by getting rid of all CPU teams

also, don't have a Regional Pro unless all 48 spots in National Pro are filled with full teams

push the CPU teams down to rookie or some other league where there are holes

So if I understand correctly you are suggesting to keep 4 leagues = static 48 teams of Natty Pro.

If there are exactly 60 "full" human plateau teams:
-How do we balance the #13 team in the game playing against the #60 team in the game (i.e. 13th best team plays the worst plateau team)?

Does it make sense to you to have effectively only 2 tiers of platea teams, 20% of those teams in WL, and the other 80% in the exact same tier?

-What do we do if we have less than 60 human teams?

-What do we do if we have more than 60 human teams?

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Keep in mind, there are likely to be roughly double the number of plateau teams in s110 compared to s104. How does your system work for both of those scenarios?

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As an aside, do you like the idea of tiered rewards for the regular season (Top 2 seeds get bye week, 6 teams make playoffs, bottom 2 teams get some additional punishment)? Why or why not?

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Fwiw I agree a d44 CPU/Incomplete sort down (have to include human owned teams without full'ish roster otherwise what's the point) is helpful no matter what. But I don't think it's enough to actually help natty pro without creating a dynamic system with narrower talent tiers as suggested in the OP.

Don't you like the idea of when your teams demote from WL, they don't spend 50/60 days in worthless purgatory with no competitive games? Because if there's a 1-wide tier2 with the #13->#24 teams, you would be spending the league with the other WL demoters and other top non-WL teams with quite a few competitive games any way you slice it. But if the WL demotee's split into 4 separate leagues (like the old system) that are all the same tier and get to play against the #60 team in GLB, it'll still be a bit of a worthless shit-show.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
So if I understand correctly you are suggesting to keep 4 leagues = static 48 teams of Natty Pro.

If there are exactly 60 "full" human plateau teams:
-How do we balance the #13 team in the game playing against the #60 team in the game (i.e. 13th best team plays the worst plateau team)?

Does it make sense to you to have effectively only 2 tiers of platea teams, 20% of those teams in WL, and the other 80% in the exact same tier?

-What do we do if we have less than 60 human teams?

-What do we do if we have more than 60 human teams?

========

Keep in mind, there are likely to be roughly double the number of plateau teams in s110 compared to s104. How does your system work for both of those scenarios?

========

As an aside, do you like the idea of tiered rewards for the regular season (Top 2 seeds get bye week, 6 teams make playoffs, bottom 2 teams get some additional punishment)? Why or why not?

========

Fwiw I agree a d44 CPU/Incomplete sort down (have to include human owned teams without full'ish roster otherwise what's the point) is helpful no matter what. But I don't think it's enough to actually help natty pro without creating a dynamic system with narrower talent tiers as suggested in the OP.

Don't you like the idea of when your teams demote from WL, they don't spend 50/60 days in worthless purgatory with no competitive games? Because if there's a 1-wide tier2 with the #13->#24 teams, you would be spending the league with the other WL demoters and other top non-WL teams with quite a few competitive games any way you slice it. But if the WL demotee's split into 4 separate leagues (like the old system) that are all the same tier and get to play against the #60 team in GLB, it'll still be a bit of a worthless shit-show.



the first tier should not have any CPU teams in them - before the breakdown, there were CPU and empty teams all throughout National Pro

National Pro should have up to 4 leagues, but fewer if not enough full teams

the level below should have all the CPU/Empty teams - if you have a full roster, to National Pro you go

not a fan of the bye week - I like the 8 stay/4 demote set-up - making the top 4 is hard (as you know - both of us have missed that by 1 point at one time or another) - dropping 6 from WL is too many

you are planning all these tiers like there are going to be all these teams to fill them - we didn't have than many before so I am not counting on it now

if too many good teams becomes a problem we can re-visit, but I will believe it when I see it

and what is the difference between a wasted season when you demote or adding extra layers (wasted seasons) through all the extra tiers you are proposing?

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN

Options off the top of my head:
1. d41-80, d81-120, and d121-d160 each get their own mini ladder, and how teams do in that should effect where they get injected at plateau.

2. If Bort fixed the global rank calc to actually make sense, this could be used to sort priority.

3. Insert entire "new" plateau league tiers somewhere slightly below the middle of the ladder (in-effect expanding the ladder from the middle)



Id actually like to say #2 if possible. Even with extended plateau, I think there should be a risk that a SUPERRRR slow build team has a downside by entering lower and having to win their way up. Conversely a bonus to playing a little bit more in the present for the several seasons before plateau. The extended plateau already placates the super slow builds, so maybe something that swings the pendulum back a tad.

Originally posted by reddogrw
not a fan of the bye week - I like the 8 stay/4 demote set-up - making the top 4 is hard (as you know - both of us have missed that by 1 point at one time or another) - dropping 6 from WL is too many

The 1 point stings, ha. Also once I had jdbolic throw a game (scoring 0 points vs a 3rd team) to knock my team out of the playoffs in the 40's, lost the tiebreaker by like 2 points allowed, those are the the things I remember, that fucker.

I don't think it's a hard as it should be actually. Even my recent WL #1 offense experiences have included a LOT of regular season coasting, same as most others. If regular season wins mattered more, I think you'd see more effort and have a reason for more cares. And I think this would exist in more than just WL, since you'd have the top 2 seeds matter is others as well.

End of the day, every team that's ever demoted from WL has deserved it. If we change the structure, those other teams will deserve it as well. And you're used to say 2 STRONG WL team's demoting to different separate Natty Pro leagues, but instead in my scenario 4 STRONG WL team's demote into the same league and get to play against each other (doesn't sound like a lost shitty auto-promote season to me).

As-is, starting out on a hot streak, there's zero real incentive the rest of the WL regular season to care or try since the #8 seed is the same as the #1 seed, which I'm not a fan of, but I appreciate you have a different opinion!


Originally posted by reddogrw
you are planning all these tiers like there are going to be all these teams to fill them - we didn't have than many before so I am not counting on it now


On the spreadsheet I actually have two tabs, one tab is an example if there's 12x9=108 Plateau teams for how promotion/demotion works. The other tab is the mapping of how many leagues given how many human/cpu teams (with the idea that it grows/shrinks as needed). I am not delusional, I'm suggesting a dynamic system that can appropriately fit all sizes by changing rather than the old static system.

If there are 60 teams, surely trying to group the 12 closest skill level teams in each league will lead to more interesting seasons than having a tier-1 (WL) of 12 teams, and a tier-2 (Natty Pro) of 48 teams.


Originally posted by reddogrw

and what is the difference between a wasted season when you demote or adding extra layers (wasted seasons) through all the extra tiers you are proposing?

-So that the game isn't trash for everyone not in the WL? I.e. so the game isn't trash for those besides the top8-12 teams.

-It's honestly odd to me that the network guys (you and mauler) are the ones most against the idea of more tiers "delaying" your inevitable rise to WL fame/greatness, when the network guys are the ones who will still be able to "skip" the tier system and reload top teams with farms anyhow to skip the ladder. If you always keep a top WL team with skill, you don't even need to climb the ladder after the start, so what's the issue?

Time for the cranky old bastard to drop his bomb and go.

#1. Don't give a rats ass about hurt feelings or how many CPU teams you gotta face. When you get to the title game and it's a CPU vs a CPU, then I'll listen to 'making changes'.

#2. Ain't gonna make Bort re-arrange every freakin league to suit everyone else's ideal of "prefect leagues". Have enough leagues (for now) to spread out the teams... scatter in whatever CPU teams are needed to fill out the schedule... and let 'er rip. This whole thing about 2 leagues, 4 leagues, 6 leagues, (enter whatever stupid number makes you happy here) leagues... all to try and make someone else's utopian ideals override Bort's work? Sheesh.

#3. What's needed is pretty simple. Time. This whole freakin project started with ZERO TEAMS after the crash. ZERO DOTS. Wishing for yesterday's glory ain't cuttin it. It's gonna take TIME for teams to be bought/built.
TIME for those teams to reach plateau.
TIME for recycling and starting over for some.
TIME for all these wild and wacky build ideas to crash and burn enough that everyone figures it all out and we all (or most all) get on the same page so our dots aren't 10 freakin levels apart.
TIME for at LEAST 10 seasons to roll past so we have a MUCH better idea of HOW MUCH and HOW MANY.

Until then, I'm on the Bort train and I'm happy and will ride it to the end. Once TIME has passed and things have settled out, THEN I might make a suggestion or two. Might like Wise's ideas... Might like Red's... Might have my own.. might go with somebody else's... might stick with Bort. I will know... in TIME.

She said it better and with less words! 😂😂😂

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yS0yBgZrVas&pp=ygUPUGFzc2FnZSBvZiB0aW1l

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Time for the cranky old bastard to drop his bomb and go.

#1. Don't give a rats ass about hurt feelings or how many CPU teams you gotta face. When you get to the title game and it's a CPU vs a CPU, then I'll listen to 'making changes'.

#2. Ain't gonna make Bort re-arrange every freakin league to suit everyone else's ideal of "prefect leagues". Have enough leagues (for now) to spread out the teams... scatter in whatever CPU teams are needed to fill out the schedule... and let 'er rip. This whole thing about 2 leagues, 4 leagues, 6 leagues, (enter whatever stupid number makes you happy here) leagues... all to try and make someone else's utopian ideals override Bort's work? Sheesh.

#3. What's needed is pretty simple. Time. This whole freakin project started with ZERO TEAMS after the crash. ZERO DOTS. Wishing for yesterday's glory ain't cuttin it. It's gonna take TIME for teams to be bought/built.
TIME for those teams to reach plateau.
TIME for recycling and starting over for some.
TIME for all these wild and wacky build ideas to crash and burn enough that everyone figures it all out and we all (or most all) get on the same page so our dots aren't 10 freakin levels apart.
TIME for at LEAST 10 seasons to roll past so we have a MUCH better idea of HOW MUCH and HOW MANY.

Until then, I'm on the Bort train and I'm happy and will ride it to the end. Once TIME has passed and things have settled out, THEN I might make a suggestion or two. Might like Wise's ideas... Might like Red's... Might have my own.. might go with somebody else's... might stick with Bort. I will know... in TIME.

+1

Wise

you are missing the point

if there are 24 decent Pro Teams + WL, then go with 2 leagues

if there are enough good teams to fill 4 leagues, go with 4

have as many National Pro Leagues (up to 4) as it takes to make all the teams be full

the rest of the CPU and CPU filled teams can go anywhere in the pyramid to fill in holes - they do NOT need to be in National/Regional Pro

ONLY even bother having regional pro if there are more than 48 National Pro and 12 WL teams already filling up those ranks

given that we were nowhere close before, I don't think it will be much of an issue

go with 1-4 National Pro Teams depending on how many there are

if there are only 3 National Pro Leagues, 1 team doesn't demote out of WL

if there are only 2 National Pro Leagues, the teams meeting for the title in both leagues move up

if 4 National Pro, then like before

let's see what we have, but the ladder format is a big NO from me

Originally posted by reddogrw
Wise

you are missing the point

if there are 24 decent Pro Teams + WL, then go with 2 leagues

if there are enough good teams to fill 4 leagues, go with 4

have as many National Pro Leagues (up to 4) as it takes to make all the teams be full

the rest of the CPU and CPU filled teams can go anywhere in the pyramid to fill in holes - they do NOT need to be in National/Regional Pro

ONLY even bother having regional pro if there are more than 48 National Pro and 12 WL teams already filling up those ranks

given that we were nowhere close before, I don't think it will be much of an issue

go with 1-4 National Pro Teams depending on how many there are

if there are only 3 National Pro Leagues, 1 team doesn't demote out of WL

if there are only 2 National Pro Leagues, the teams meeting for the title in both leagues move up

if 4 National Pro, then like before

let's see what we have, but the ladder format is a big NO from me

I Hate it when you use logic to make a point.

bump per request

given that there is only 1 league at the level below the current age level of 6, and only 2 each season below that, I don't think we need a ladder for plateau - just not enough teams

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/leagues.pl

Originally posted by reddogrw
given that there is only 1 league at the level below the current age level of 6, and only 2 each season below that, I don't think we need a ladder for plateau - just not enough teams

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/leagues.pl

Red, I'm not really trying to count teams, but 6-8 plateau leagues of teams is ideal for a ladder on a sustainable basis. Also keep in mind my suggestion is if >9 leagues (but could be a different number) that the ladder becomes double wide instead of single wide.

Again, try to think of a ladder as trying to group together the 12 most "even" teams possible. This would clearly improve competitive games and fun outside of the WL. Currently the top12 teams are in one level, and the 13th-64th team are grouped together in level2, which is fucking impossible to be competitive.

If we have 5x s100 leagues hit plateau, then 12 teams/ssn for the next 6 seasons, that will be 11 leagues worth of plateau teams. Probably some pack it up in the meantime and it's not quite that number, but to pretend "we don't have enough teams for a ladder" doesn't make sense, since we need less teams for a successful ladder (36-48 total teams would be sufficient) while needing more teams for the retarded mushroom with a star at the top previous structure.

I understand you want to QQ at the idea of taking 2 seasons to reach WL instead of 1 season to reach WL. Since plateau went from 5 seasons to 7 seasons, I think taking up to +2 seasons to make WL (with those leagues on the way being competitive and filled with human teams) is ultra reasonable. And networks like yours who can gut-refill players without the journey up, really only need to climb the ladder once anyhow and still have a distinct advantage.

Making the rest of GLB outside WL not be an AFK suckfest with 4 human teams a season will help this game last and be fun for all, not just the 3-4 networks dry humping each other in the WL.

Fact: at the end of the day, as highlighted in OP, is that a STATIC league structure can only at most be optimal for one # of teams, while a DYNAMIC league structure can be optimal for a much larger # of teams.

I just dont see how we are going to sustain levels beyond this season without making the same reg pro mistake of the old system with 60s facing 79s at reg pro. next season all the semi pro need to go up but then what is the point of elite and competitive? we again have too many teams filled with cpu players because players only want to sign with competitive teams. there's no way to sustain 4 pro leagues and a reg pro level, and you cant leave the semi pro losers there because it'll be 79s vs 62s which is even worse than the old way. with all the good teams crammed into elite, only elite teams then it wouldnt be fair to leave some of them behind while promoting teams from competitive leagues. if he promotes all the elite teams and just the competitive conf winners, then he has enough teams for 2 pro leagues and the rest into a reg pro level, but that would make the elite season meaningless if everyone promotes.. then the season after, takes the top half of each league to create the new wl. another way to create the wl would be the pro tournament. top 12 teams create the wl. i always wished the wl/pro tourny winner should make the wl the next season regardless of league standing.

Gupp, to be clear, I'm proposing a ladder for plateau dots only. Not mixing dot ages together...