Warrior General Games

Has anyone really looked at how the two sa's perform anymore being that since it has been a normal thing anymore using them and now where the defensive players start using more confidence to combat it.
Case in point chopper409 has some guards and tackles that he made for a hcreek team (a big name in W/L with multiple trophies) and stated that the dots don't have pummel/aoi as he built them for hcreek.
Is the two sa's still worth it?

great question. the successful players have always adapted to the norm in order to take advantage of what everyone else does.

There are still a lot of O-line dot builders who do not follow Pummel/AOI from what I've seen, and there's never a shortage of people who look at Confidence and put it on the back-burner because other stuff seems more important. There's certainly more awareness out there that Confidence can't be ignored completely, but there's still a lot of people who try to get by with relatively low amounts... even if that now means 40 instead of 25.

So there's still plenty of room for great Pummel/AOI builds on the O-line, I'd guess.

I have a group that just hit plataeu that I will be watching but my early findings are you could probably go either way and be fine

The next question would be... if not Pummel, then what?

Originally posted by ProRobber
The next question would be... if not Pummel, then what?



I use to build guards with speed and first step, it was fun watching those dots but that was back in the day, also once the word pummel/aoi started circulating back then that's when you were more required to land a a good team

Not to say that pummel/aoi is not a viable option just been wondering lately if it has been as effective now as it was back then

All good points but consider you seem to be comparing apples to oranges a bit, Bluesman. SA's against Skills. The better question would be are AOI and Pummel detracting from the build because winning the moral battle sure does seem to lead to a lot of wins.
I think if GLB could go back and rethink bits and pieces of their approach they would re-do just what morale effects and how potent the effect is. Against many power rushing teams, the cumulative effect of moral damage from AOI & Pummel does seem to have an effect. I've seen the slow increase of sustained offensive drives, longer runs, and a general wearing down of a defense by the 4th quarter and when you check the morale/stamina at the end of the game it shows the damage done. Some of that could just be the style of the offense but it seems a little off that you can hold someone down for 3 quarters then watch as they bust off bigger and bigger runs in the 4th quarter (if you consider all other things equal in the way dot builders do Stamina on their dots).

All that said, again, I come back to the question "are the SP's you're spending (and the time and effort) to get AOI & Pummel seriously detracting from the build (mainly the skills)?" I mean, we (the dot builders) pretty much have certain SA's in the tree we'll be taking to 10... and a few we tend to take to what we can get... so we're really talking only Bonus SA's here and since almost every builder gets and uses at least one on their dots, then ProRobber made the right query...

Originally posted by ProRobber
The next question would be... if not Pummel, then what?

What would you replace AOI/Pummel with that would have as much of, if not more, effect on the game? I could see maybe trying to make a dual purpose O-lineman and snag a Pass (block) type of SA if building a Run Block dot... or vise versa... but most of those are in the SA trees anyways and we're talking about BONUS SA's. TBH, I don't know of a better bonus SA to get for an O-lineman... but then again I've pretty much just been building according to the Pummel/AOI mantra for quite a long time now and haven't given it a ton of thought.

I would think the alternative is to load up the Pass or Run Block trees and ignore the bonus SA's

Originally posted by reddogrw
I would think the alternative is to load up the Pass or Run Block trees and ignore the bonus SA's

So when you first start the dot and you have to choose the Bonus... just pick any random one?

Originally posted by ProRobber
The next question would be... if not Pummel, then what?



imo AOI is the important part of the equation....Cut Block and Get Low appear as effective as Pummel when AOI is used.....

I would even call AOI as important as say PP on a QB and one of the few SAs that can be worth going to 12 + on

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Originally posted by reddogrw

I would think the alternative is to load up the Pass or Run Block trees and ignore the bonus SA's

So when you first start the dot and you have to choose the Bonus... just pick any random one?

the open build I saw from a builder of HCreek used dots was First Step and it had 6 in it so maybe that route

Originally posted by reddogrw
the open build I saw from a builder of HCreek used dots was First Step and it had 6 in it so maybe that route

Yes first step and pump up speed a bit more than normal

Originally posted by Bluesman
Originally posted by reddogrw

the open build I saw from a builder of HCreek used dots was First Step and it had 6 in it so maybe that route

Yes first step and pump up speed a bit more than normal

the speed on the dot I saw was 77 for a run block tackle - I don't consider that higher than normal - I have seen some OL with 85-90 speed - maybe that is why the dot was a FA though lol

IMHO, Left Tackle needs more speed than a Right one does... and Guards (which pull most often) need it more as well if you plan on doing a lot of 'Pulling Lineman' style plays. Center not so much. I would think 1st step would be wasted on a Center as they rarely never pull. I could easily see it on other O-linemen.

Originally posted by reddogrw
the speed on the dot I saw was 77 for a run block tackle - I don't consider that higher than normal - I have seen some OL with 85-90 speed - maybe that is why the dot was a FA though lol

77 is enough for tackles though, to much speed on a tackle will cause the dot to jump back to far where the d dot just runs inside to the qb then. You might not want 1st step on a tackle neither but I am now positive on that part.

When I mentioned bumping up speed I was referring to guards more for the speed part, not only for pulling but ever watch a guard with 1st step and 85+ speed, even straight up blocking, the guard will block a d dot pancake it then move dowfield blocking another dot.