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Theo Wizzago
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Simply put I get the advantages of tagging and, for the most part, haven't had many issues with it. But every now and then some sneaky OC actually throws to a BTE (meaning the dot is a BTE... not just playing the position) and I watch it get a 1st down because I tagged it as a blocker... not a receiver. So, is there a penalty to making a wrong tag and, if so, how bad can it be? I mean, he wasn't fast enough to get away for a TD or other crazy stuff but it sure did bring the thought to mind. Tagging wrongly...
such as a Scatback HB as a receiver who then becomes a runner?
a Blocking FB as a blocker that becomes a runner?
or a Receiving TE as a receiver, but becomes a blocker... or even a runner (playing oop at FB)?
A part or me can see it might not make much of a difference sometimes... but could at others. Anyone out there know anything on this?
 
ProfessionalKop
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i dont know if i fully understand this post. youre tagging doesnt change what the dot can/cant do and doesnt provide penalties to incorrect taggings (ie tagging a bte as a rte or vice versa). it will just fire the designed output in your ai.

say you have 2 identical plays for I form, one that is made for rTE and one for bTE. if you tag the rec as a receiver and the blocker as a blocker, those outputs will fire accordingly. if that bTE goes out for a pass and you dont cover the bTE in your designed play/output, that's on you.
 
ProfessionalKop
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if you tag a wr as receiver and the team puts him in at QB, that'll throw off all of your tags which is why it's a good idea to have catchall inputs/outputs. cuz as soon as the WR goes in at QB, and you dont have the catchall stuff setup, it'll pick a glb play.
 
ProfessionalKop
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if for some insane reason you like to tag rTEs with the bTE tag, it won't make that TE any better or worse if that's what you're asking. you can use any tag for any dot.
 
drewd21
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BigRatUno
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Even though he's tagged as a blocker you can still cover him in the defensive play.
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
if you tag a wr as receiver and the team puts him in at QB, that'll throw off all of your tags which is why it's a good idea to have catchall inputs/outputs. cuz as soon as the WR goes in at QB, and you dont have the catchall stuff setup, it'll pick a glb play.


Didn't know this so thanks.

Originally posted by BigRatUno
Even though he's tagged as a blocker you can still cover him in the defensive play.


This is kinda what I was wondering but even more-so in that does the defender covering him now have some kind of 'reaction' or some such penalty against him (vision hit?) that makes him not cover the TE correctly/as well? I get ProKops confusion... didn't state too clearly what I was seeking but it's like this (sort of);

A Blocking TE playing at the BTE position gets tagged as a 'blocker'. However, even though a LB might be assigned to him (why I don't know as he's being thought of as a blocker, not a receiver)... would that LB then suffer some kind of penalty that causes him to not cover as well? Or even maybe ignore him because his secondary target IS a receiver (2nd assignment in progressions) so why would he stay with the TE (1st assignment in progressions)?

I mean, Tagging is supposed to give the defense a benefit when properly done... so is there a penalty when it's not right?
 
Novus
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
This is kinda what I was wondering but even more-so in that does the defender covering him now have some kind of 'reaction' or some such penalty against him (vision hit?) that makes him not cover the TE correctly/as well? I get ProKops confusion... didn't state too clearly what I was seeking but it's like this (sort of);

A Blocking TE playing at the BTE position gets tagged as a 'blocker'. However, even though a LB might be assigned to him (why I don't know as he's being thought of as a blocker, not a receiver)... would that LB then suffer some kind of penalty that causes him to not cover as well? Or even maybe ignore him because his secondary target IS a receiver (2nd assignment in progressions) so why would he stay with the TE (1st assignment in progressions)?

I mean, Tagging is supposed to give the defense a benefit when properly done... so is there a penalty when it's not right?


Tagging does not give any direct benefits or penalties. At all.

The advantage of tagging is simply that it gives you the chance to tailor your defense to the opponent's personnel. If you notice that, for example, your opponent's blocking TE only gets used on running plays, you can tag him as a Blocker and make sure that you only call defensive plays that are designed to shut down the run whenever he's on the field. That's it. Tagging just gives you one extra factor to base your defensive play-calling on, so you're not just looking at their formation and the down-and-distance.

Another example... your opponent has two Receiver Archetype TEs, and in the course of your scouting you notice that when they're in Single Back formation with TE #1, they always call TE Drive, but when they're in Single Back formation with TE #2, they always call TE Shallow Cross. Maybe one TE is built speedier than the other, while the other is a better catcher. Even though both are Receiver Archetype TEs, you can tag 1 as "Speedy" and the other as "Combo" and have two defensive plays for Single Back, one to defend against TE #1 on the TE Drive play, and one to defend against TE #2 on the TE Shallow Cross play.

Hell, the Tag names are just names, nothing more. I could just as easily tag TE #1 as "Power" and TE #2 as "Blocker" and accomplish EXACTLY the same thing. The tag names themselves do not matter. They might as well be "Tag #1," "Tag #2," "Tag #3," "Tag #4," etc. Bort just gave them names to make it easier for you to work with them, but the names themselves have absolutely zero effect on how effectively the dots play.
Edited by Novus on Jul 4, 2019 23:41:52
 
TJ Spikes
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Fwiw, there's plenty of low hanging fruit to be had by using a less than ideal archetype to do a job. Using your TE issue as an example: the Rec TE gets Speed and Catching as Majors with a +0.4, and blocking and strength as Minors. The bTE gets Speed and Catching as Minors at +0.33, with blocking and strength as Majors. So there's a whole entire +0.07 difference. Over the entire build that makes a 3.38 difference in raw ALGs. Some of that will be made up in training automatically, by the virtue the values being slightly lower yielding higher training %s.

So you could make an acceptable receiving target out of a bTE, or a faster blocker out of a rTE, and take advantage of wrong tags.
Edited by TJ Spikes on Jul 5, 2019 07:49:38
 
Novus
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Great point, TJ... there's a team in my league right now that's doing that with their QBs. They have a Scrambler QB who get used like a normal passing QB and NEVER runs, and a Deep Passer QB who gets used like a rushing QB and who NEVER passes. Most DCs seem to notice the trick and tag the QBs based on how they actually get used, but there are a couple of DCs who fall for it.

People get way too wrapped up in an Archetype's Name. My all-running team uses ST-Archetype WRs, but they don't play a second on Special Teams. I've seen Rusher-Archetype FBs built as blockers that made better blockers than Blocker-Archetype FBs. I've seen Coverage-Archetype LBs that made better blitzers than Blitzer-Archetype LBs. Archetype NAME doesn't matter... what matters are what type of dot you want to build, and you pick your Archetype based on which Majors and SA bonuses will best help you accomplish your goal.
 
BigRatUno
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Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
if you tag a wr as receiver and the team puts him in at QB, that'll throw off all of your tags which is why it's a good idea to have catchall inputs/outputs. cuz as soon as the WR goes in at QB, and you dont have the catchall stuff setup, it'll pick a glb play.


Write your default defense without tags and place the tagged plays above it.
If you tag all passing threat QBs the default can assume a rushing QB which is what a RB or WR would threaten.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes

So you could make an acceptable receiving target out of a bTE, or a faster blocker out of a rTE, and take advantage of wrong tags.


And with two identical players with 2 sets of EQ you can alternate which is Blocker and which is Receiver. As a Blocker he only needs to be able to initially block a defender who could cover him if he were a Receiver.
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4731817
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4731818
 
Theo Wizzago
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Thanks guys. Really appreciated this. Also explains a few issues I've been having. This should help me clean things up a lot.
 
Novus
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Thanks guys. Really appreciated this. Also explains a few issues I've been having. This should help me clean things up a lot.


Dammit, my team is playing your team in the morning. Why did I help you?
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Novus
Dammit, my team is playing your team in the morning. Why did I help you?


No sweat. I'm not DC for that team.
 
darncat
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I've heard some of the pre-set AIs utilize tagging (not sure as i've never used one)
is this what you are referring to? Otherwise you have to set your AI up for tags for them to work
 
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