Warrior General Games

I never see Juke on pHBs; saw it on a cpu and of course dot was booty as its cpu
but the juke really seemed to scatter our d-line sometimes, so i wondered-
could this be useful for a pB? An agent with a running FB was asking if he should
change one of his additional SAs because Stiff Arm doesn't seem to do much.
I had noticed the same- his dot fires PT and Spin all the time but rarely ever a Stiff Arm
where as my QB Jukes and Spins often but never really uses the Stiff Arm either.
So I suggested maybe Juke, since he already has Quick Feet for the spin bonus.
Is it useful to have Juke on inside runs? It seems it could be effective but i rarely see it used.

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4318317

pretty piss poor build but look at his replays and decide for yourself. also has no fucking fake piece. idk what i was doing.


stiff arm doesnt fire cuz PT fires nonstop. stiff arm cant fire if the pHB is just running ppl the fuck over.

If you have high agility and carry the ball, Juke if useful on anything... PHB, EHB, RQB, RFB, RTE, SWR, even your OT if he carries the ball. That said, I think the question you're more meaning is if it's WORTH getting for a PHB and, if it's a real PHB build then I would say no. You want the PHB SA's.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4318317

pretty piss poor build but look at his replays and decide for yourself. also has no fucking fake piece. idk what i was doing.


stiff arm doesnt fire cuz PT fires nonstop. stiff arm cant fire if the pHB is just running ppl the fuck over.

I would like to have seen that build with 40 vision, putting the SP instead to get conf to 40 and the rest in jumping and swap Surge for Hurdle

Originally posted by reddogrw
I would like to have seen that build with 40 vision, putting the SP instead to get conf to 40 and the rest in jumping and swap Surge for Hurdle

100%. No idea why I did surge. Another break tackle SA like hurdle would’ve been much better. Oh well. I have a few similar builds I think. I’ll look tomorrow and post what I have. Should be something similar but a little better SP placement I think.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
If you have high agility and carry the ball, Juke if useful on anything... PHB, EHB, RQB, RFB, RTE, SWR, even your OT if he carries the ball. That said, I think the question you're more meaning is if it's WORTH getting for a PHB and, if it's a real PHB build then I would say no. You want the PHB SA's.

Well has already had rushing SAs: 10 Power Thru, 10 Cover Up, 5 D4Y
also will have 9 Spin and 8 Quick Cut. His original additional SA was Stiff Arm,
but it never really fires. Juke is working for our other players, and he already has
Quick Feet VA so it seemed a good option. Also it says Quick Cut helps juke
and he has a lot of that as well. The only other SA I can think of for a PB is surge,
but he already has good acceleration, and he will outrun our bFB if he's any faster.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4318317

pretty piss poor build but look at his replays and decide for yourself. also has no fucking fake piece. idk what i was doing.


stiff arm doesnt fire cuz PT fires nonstop. stiff arm cant fire if the pHB is just running ppl the fuck over.

The PfBs build is pretty similar, although not as much carry (his 15% avoid fumble and 10 Cover Up
seems to be working to avoid fumbles so far thankfully) instead he has agility in the 90's. Did this dot
fire juke frequently? I was worried high vision might be important to pull juke off, but your HB has
almost as low vision as the FB i'm helping with, so if it worked well for your dot hopefully it would
work decent at least for the FB.

Originally posted by reddogrw
I would like to have seen that build with 40 vision, putting the SP instead to get conf to 40 and the rest in jumping and swap Surge for Hurdle

Doesn't vision have some affect on pulling off fakes though? I'd be worried vision that low
would make it nearly impossible to use fakes. Can a dot still do juke with a vision that low?

Originally posted by darncat
Well has already had rushing SAs: 10 Power Thru, 10 Cover Up, 5 D4Y
also will have 9 Spin and 8 Quick Cut. His original additional SA was Stiff Arm,
but it never really fires. Juke is working for our other players, and he already has
Quick Feet VA so it seemed a good option. Also it says Quick Cut helps juke
and he has a lot of that as well. The only other SA I can think of for a PB is surge,
but he already has good acceleration, and he will outrun our bFB if he's any faster.


Maybe someone else can back me up here but having too many firing SA's can, IMO, cause issues. Example; You need a yard and your dot fires Juke... then get's tackled short of the LTG. What was needed to fire was Power Through or Surge. I'm not 100% sure there's an intelligence behind which thing fires when you have multiple things that CAN fire. So the more you have, the more confused the things get. If you choose one (or two similar like Power Through and Surge) then you can guarantee what you built will be championed. It's why you seldom see an EHB with Power Through AND Juke. Not saying it hasn't been done but I'm not sure anyone has championed the tactic for the reasons I just gave.

This dot was OK
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4664551

I personally love juke on a powerback.

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2919250&pbp_id=623485
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2917001&pbp_id=214203

Originally posted by SeattleNiner
This dot was OK
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4664551

I personally love juke on a powerback.

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2919250&pbp_id=623485
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2917001&pbp_id=214203

thanks for the example
i see his vision is only low 50's as well, so that gives me hope that it'll work for this FB.
Granted he doesn't have that fake% chance yr dot does, but he does have agi in the 90's and 8 Quick Cut
so that might make up at least some for not having the fake%.

The second example was a private scrimmage though- can't see it

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

Maybe someone else can back me up here but having too many firing SA's can, IMO, cause issues. Example; You need a yard and your dot fires Juke... then get's tackled short of the LTG. What was needed to fire was Power Through or Surge. I'm not 100% sure there's an intelligence behind which thing fires when you have multiple things that CAN fire. So the more you have, the more confused the things get. If you choose one (or two similar like Power Through and Surge) then you can guarantee what you built will be championed. It's why you seldom see an EHB with Power Through AND Juke. Not saying it hasn't been done but I'm not sure anyone has championed the tactic for the reasons I just gave.



Now, that was what i was sorta thinking, because the cpu i mentioned was juking our whole d-line
and yet it didn't really accomplish much. However that was a crappy cpu who wasn't quick enough to
take advantage of it, nor did it have +25.5% BT. Now, correct me if this doesn't seem true-
a player who has just been juked will be less likely to make the tackle than had he not been juked.
i'm not talking about going the wrong way and not being able to attempt the tackle at all
(which is obviously the best case scenario for a juker) but even when the dot shrinks because of
a 'stumble' but they still get a chance at the tackle, it seems they receive some kind of penalty
due to balance or position. Maybe this is not the case, but it sure seems like some dots' tackles
are easier to break while they are being juked than when they are waiting to crush you.

In any event, it seems like it'd be an upgrade over Stiff Arm, right- because on the one hand juke usually
fires a couple steps before being tackled, so its less likely to try to trigger when needing Power Thru
than Stiff Arm. Plus, Juke I actually see work often, where as Stiff Arm hardly never, so if PT does get
'pipped to the post' by Juke or Stiff Arm at least Juke will usually still fire at least. I suppose LtS could be taken
into account- it seems to fire a bit more often than Stiff Arm, but you're still encountering the problem
of having an inferior SA fire and then you can't use the better one for a couple clicks.

It's important to remember we're talking about apples and oranges.

Juke is a fake. It fires before a tackle would be attempted.

Power through is a tackle breaker, i.e. it cannot fire until a tackle has been attempted.

There's no direct conflict between the two. The difference comes in running style tactics and likelihood of success.

If your runner is set to -100 pure power running, then Jukes won't be attempted very often.

There's a Q&A somewhere that says there's no advantage in rolls from being set to more powerful running. The difference would just be angle of attack. Spin however, does get a bonus to setting more elusive on the slider.

There's also a Q&A that explains that Tackle Breakers are attempted on a priority system. Most likely to succeed to least likely.

That's why Power Through is the most often seen. It's always the first to be tried. It's most likely that if the most powerful tackle breaker doesn't succeed, then nothing will, and the ball carrier gets tackled. The purpose of investing in the lesser tackle breakers is insurance. You could get an unlucky roll with PT and then have Stiff Arm or LtS succeed. It's probably a good idea to invest in 2 tackle breakers, but not every tackle breaker.

I vaguely recall that Bort posted the priority of Tackle Breaker SAs somewhere. Something to the effect of PT>Spin>LtS>Stiff Arm or something close to that.

Then there's the angle of attack issue. Like you can't Power Through someone behind you, but you could Spin maybe or Stiff Arm.

If you spend a few hours digging through the Q&A threads and the BortStalker thread, you can probably get some answers on how things are supposed to work.

Then the issue becomes if things were changed after that post, or if the game doesn't behave like it's supposed to.

Sorry don't mean to write a book

That all sounds right and/or what i remember hearing
The thing is, the Stiff Arm just seems rather useless as a second 'insurance'
after PT and Spin for a power runner who's decent at doing spin.
Even on those tackles from behind, if the spin doesn't work, the Stiff Arm rarely does for him.
For the once in a blue moon it actually works, it seems it'd be well worth it to trade that
for a completely different type of SA which will thus work more often. The way you put it,
its kinda like having a third AeQ in the same %. In this case, that 3rd bite at the break tackle move
seems much less useful than a totally different apple (or orange). So it seems like Juke or Surge.
I know some ppl swear by surge but he's just the right speed not to outrun KP's great blocking FB
in those all-important first few yards past the LOS at least. If he's any faster it risks taking our
great lead blocker out of the play, and that seems counter productive. I'm leaning toward juke
because of the examples i've seen of other power backs who've used it. If it worked for them,
it seems worth a try. The extra insurance of Stiff Arm just isn't having the effect for him justify keeping it imo

Also, since I know nothing about builds I can't usually input into these conversations, but atlas something to say:

Even if what Theo says is true about juking being counter-intuitive to a PHB's typical job on a running play, it is entirely possible to avoid these conflicts using the AI alone, and therefore I don't think they are even worth mentioning.

Edit for clarity: Just don't use this power halfback on 4th and .5, use him on 1st and 10?

Originally posted by darncat
Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

If you have high agility and carry the ball, Juke if useful on anything... PHB, EHB, RQB, RFB, RTE, SWR, even your OT if he carries the ball. That said, I think the question you're more meaning is if it's WORTH getting for a PHB and, if it's a real PHB build then I would say no. You want the PHB SA's.

Well has already had rushing SAs: 10 Power Thru, 10 Cover Up, 5 D4Y
also will have 9 Spin and 8 Quick Cut. His original additional SA was Stiff Arm,
but it never really fires. Juke is working for our other players, and he already has
Quick Feet VA so it seemed a good option. Also it says Quick Cut helps juke
and he has a lot of that as well. The only other SA I can think of for a PB is surge,
but he already has good acceleration, and he will outrun our bFB if he's any faster.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4318317

pretty piss poor build but look at his replays and decide for yourself. also has no fucking fake piece. idk what i was doing.


stiff arm doesnt fire cuz PT fires nonstop. stiff arm cant fire if the pHB is just running ppl the fuck over.

The PfBs build is pretty similar, although not as much carry (his 15% avoid fumble and 10 Cover Up
seems to be working to avoid fumbles so far thankfully) instead he has agility in the 90's. Did this dot
fire juke frequently? I was worried high vision might be important to pull juke off, but your HB has
almost as low vision as the FB i'm helping with, so if it worked well for your dot hopefully it would
work decent at least for the FB.

Originally posted by reddogrw

I would like to have seen that build with 40 vision, putting the SP instead to get conf to 40 and the rest in jumping and swap Surge for Hurdle

Doesn't vision have some affect on pulling off fakes though? I'd be worried vision that low
would make it nearly impossible to use fakes. Can a dot still do juke with a vision that low?

I wouldn't spend much effort on those personally

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4695766

absolutely no fumbles until 3 in WL each season there so far

2 in Cover up, only because of CE and putting 1 there to get to the later SA's in the SA tree and no AF% equipment

I would only use AF% equipment on a returner

For what it's worth, my pHB has more "wasted" in Stiff Arm than I'd probably ever do again. 5 in Stiff Arm, and a ton of PT + Hurdle.

First 5 games as WL OMVP last season: 74 broken tackles total - 32 were Power Thru, 13 from Hurdle, 0 from Stiff Arm. 29 were just plain old broken tackles, without no SA fire mentioned.

Only thing I could find digging though the old Q&A reports, was maybe it's a lack of vision? I'm certainly not going to hammer vision on a pHB just to make Stiff Arm function however. His Str/Agl/Car were all very high.

Originally posted by Mar 9, 2010 - Bort Q&A


#16 - Question about the power back tree. I assume strength is the major component of Lower the Shoulder, Stiff Arm, and Power Through. I would think carry is 2nd, are there any other attributes that help these SA's fire? Does the sim just choose one of these at random to roll or is there a sequence that the sim goes through?

Vision, agility can help. The roll is based on a combination of attributes in one or a couple of rolls. - Bort

Also re: Fumbles, depends a lot on usage. If you're seeing 10-15 carries a game, NoF% is probably a waste. If you're getting 30+ carries a game, I found myself wishing I had either more Cover Up or a dinky amount of NF%.

Ended up 17 Fum on 538 carries. Running into the teeth of the D that many times a game adds up. That was despite being a hair over 105 Car & 5 Cover Up. Repeated Monster Hits just saps the energy/morale too much, and makes them vulnerable late when you're trying to put the game away.)