Warrior General Games

For me the most important attributes are ...

85 strength 155 speed, 95 agility, 95 carrying 60 stamina, 60 vision

then a minimum of ...

15% BT,15% Avoid Fumble, 15% fake chance

I don't use first step myself.

VAs that every returner should have to 15 are...Special Teamer, Slippery, Return Man, Quick Feet, and Steady Grip

If you hit the above, or very close to it, I am not too fussed about the rest

Originally posted by lexden11
For me the most important attributes are ...

85 strength 155 speed, 95 agility, 95 carrying 60 stamina, 60 vision

then a minimum of ...

15% BT,15% Avoid Fumble, 15% fake chance

I don't use first step myself.

VAs that every returner should have to 15 are...Special Teamer, Slippery, Return Man, Quick Feet, and Steady Grip

If you hit the above, or very close to it, I am not too fussed about the rest

Ya I as actually having reservations about the first step on a returner, so as far as your extra custom what would you suggest as you posted 15% t, 15% avoid and 15% fake chance

It depends. The number 1 thing I look for in a returner is to not fumble, so I usually double up on avoid fumble but sometimes even 22.5% is not enough. I build me eHB returners as heavy as possible, so I usually have 2 x bt, 2 x af and 1 x fc.
If you go down the 2 x fc route then you often avoid the first gunner, but on the ST teams I run, it is my second wave that often have 3 x ff pieces.

Lighter, quicker, returners are more useful at lower levels but at WL, it is almost impossible for a returner to have more return TDs than fumbles.

I sent him this template;

KR Elusive HB
103 speed
95 agility
90 carrying
80 strength
60 stamina
60 vision
50 confidence

10 Juke, 10 spin, 10 Return Specialist

2x break tackle, not fumble, fake chance

Lexden kinda has a point in that you don't wanna be a big time fumbler but he also mentions that 22.5 isn't enough as well as his take on weight has a bearing. Thing is, more AF doesn't equate to less fumbles. No AF is bad! But stacking it up like a psycho doesn't help as much as avoiding head on collisions with defenders does. Juke, Spin, high agility, high carrying, high strength, and decent vision will do more to avoid fumbles than adding on a 2nd or 3rd stack on AF will.

That's also why I suggested the Fullback build for a returner. I did one not overly long ago and it was fun... different... but fun. The whole idea behind the build was to completely minimize fumbles and forget about TD's but go for great field position. A FB can be built heavier and using the Powerback style approach, it can break a lot of tackles... especially against those DB's on the ST's (which get used a lot because of speed... Personally, I'd much rather load up on LB's and DE's on ST's if possible. The more, the better.) But if you DO go the Power FB style returner build then you WILL wand those extra AF pieces as you're not going to have the spin&juke to help you avoid head on collisions.
Anyways, the OP should have enough to work with here no matter what road he chooses.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
I sent him this template;

KR Elusive HB
103 speed
95 agility
90 carrying
80 strength
60 stamina
60 vision
50 confidence

10 Juke, 10 spin, 10 Return Specialist

2x break tackle, not fumble, fake chance

Lexden kinda has a point in that you don't wanna be a big time fumbler but he also mentions that 22.5 isn't enough as well as his take on weight has a bearing. Thing is, more AF doesn't equate to less fumbles. No AF is bad! But stacking it up like a psycho doesn't help as much as avoiding head on collisions with defenders does. Juke, Spin, high agility, high carrying, high strength, and decent vision will do more to avoid fumbles than adding on a 2nd or 3rd stack on AF will.

That's also why I suggested the Fullback build for a returner. I did one not overly long ago and it was fun... different... but fun. The whole idea behind the build was to completely minimize fumbles and forget about TD's but go for great field position. A FB can be built heavier and using the Powerback style approach, it can break a lot of tackles... especially against those DB's on the ST's (which get used a lot because of speed... Personally, I'd much rather load up on LB's and DE's on ST's if possible. The more, the better.) But if you DO go the Power FB style returner build then you WILL wand those extra AF pieces as you're not going to have the spin&juke to help you avoid head on collisions.
Anyways, the OP should have enough to work with here no matter what road he chooses.



That's why i put two not fumble pcs on my plan, might not be enough but be better than non at all, also with carrying at 95 and you could put the va carrying on the dot putting carrying at 102 along with cover o[ sa that shpould help but not eliminate all fumbles. I wouldn't be trying to make a dot that scored a td all the time but one that could possible run it for on and also to eliminate the fumbleites as much as possible while most run backs would be to give the offense decent field position.

Lexden;s nunbers are close to mine the diff being he puts 155 speed to my 160 speed, 85 strength to my 80 strength, he doesn't use first step which i would really agree with, does a returner need first step?
As for spin and conf those two would fall to where and if I could put points in them, be a bit hard to have every sa, attr and eq to be where you would like them to e, sometimes you just have to give up something to get the other

Originally posted by Bluesman
So then and correct me if I am wrong as i am thinking of building a returner as one of my next dots.

speed: 160ish, I have read that to much could be bad as the returner will out run the blockers. (thoughts)
agility 95
carrying 95
strength 80+
stamina 60
vision 60 (enough vision or to much?)

SA's
quick cut 8+
head fake 8+
first step 10 (does a returner need 10 in first step?)
juke 10
cover up 8-10
return spec 10
some in spin if possible

AEQ
not fumble% 1
fake 2
custom bonuses not fumble
any other suggestions here !!!

va's
return man
special teamer
quick feet
+ 27 to be determined (maybe 15 of them in steady grip)


I’ve be seen some good returners with strength and vision ~65; spin instead of head fake, minimal investment in FS; carrying around 90; confidence 40-55 (depending on how they see this skill); % pieces of % Break tackle, % fake chance and % not fumble (though sometimes spin is the AEQ and a % piece is covered by the CEQ).

In the end, competition will determine a helluva lot of outcomes. Say you build two identical Returners. You might go an entire length of returner A's career and and seldom get a fumble (except for the standard Bort/GLB %'s which says you're gonna fumble baby... it's just a matter of how may times), even in WL. But there are some ST coaches that not only are good but know how to BUILD a team of ST dots specifically designed to cause fumbles AND use those dots to perfection. As a (former) ST coach and returner builder, I have tangled with plenty of them over the years and have come to know a few toughies. When you face those, the possibility of fumbling increases... period. No matter HOW you build the dot. Give it 100 carrying and 100 strength and 5 pieces of AF gear (4 AEQ+CEQ) and you'll still fumble more when you face those teams. So returner B might face that a few times in his career and you'll end up with two identical dots with two very different career stat lines.
A lot of these builds are pretty close to the same things with a personal 'twist' on a skill or a SA but, overall, the same. The only HUGE difference in building a returner is the 'Speed/Elusive' vs the 'Power/Strength' style. One is a home run hitter and the other is a steady Eddie. Both are fun but, in the end, it's up to the builder.

Originally posted by lexden11
It depends. The number 1 thing I look for in a returner is to not fumble, so I usually double up on avoid fumble but sometimes even 22.5% is not enough. I build me eHB returners as heavy as possible, so I usually have 2 x bt, 2 x af and 1 x fc.
If you go down the 2 x fc route then you often avoid the first gunner, but on the ST teams I run, it is my second wave that often have 3 x ff pieces.

Lighter, quicker, returners are more useful at lower levels but at WL, it is almost impossible for a returner to have more return TDs than fumbles.

i love to load up on return specialist to 15. 95 in carrying plus the va for it. at least 1 but preferably 2 not fumble. that usually keeps the WL returners to 1 or 2 fumbles per season. a lot of it just depends on how good the blocking is.

Originally posted by lexden11
For me the most important attributes are ...

85 strength 155 speed, 95 agility, 95 carrying 60 stamina, 60 vision

then a minimum of ...

15% BT,15% Avoid Fumble, 15% fake chance

I don't use first step myself.

VAs that every returner should have to 15 are...Special Teamer, Slippery, Return Man, Quick Feet, and Steady Grip

If you hit the above, or very close to it, I am not too fussed about the rest

What kind of attr levels would you look to hit for a rFB returner?

The 1 I currently have at level 79 has 138 speed, 101 carrying, 95 strength, 85 agility

Originally posted by lexden11
The 1 I currently have at level 79 has 138 speed, 101 carrying, 95 strength, 85 agility

Bothered with vision much?

Originally posted by drewd21
Bothered with vision much?

Vision on a returner is a little strange and I think you'll get the gamut of responses. What I do know is that you'll know when you don't have enough. When the dot stalls as if wondering which lane to take... when it runs into it's own blockers... when the obvious choice is lane #1 and he takes lane #2. But you can also simply waste SP's pushing it high when it's not really needed. I usually shoot for somewhere around 60... will settle for 50+... would prefer 60-70. More than 70 is a waste, IMO.

regarding Vision....remember that 15 VA points in Return Man gives a 45% Vision boost and 15 in Special Teamer gives a 15% boost....considering this I usually only go low 60's on Vision...

Originally posted by drewd21
Originally posted by lexden11

The 1 I currently have at level 79 has 138 speed, 101 carrying, 95 strength, 85 agility

Bothered with vision much?

Not much

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Vision on a returner is a little strange and I think you'll get the gamut of responses. What I do know is that you'll know when you don't have enough. When the dot stalls as if wondering which lane to take... when it runs into it's own blockers... when the obvious choice is lane #1 and he takes lane #2. But you can also simply waste SP's pushing it high when it's not really needed. I usually shoot for somewhere around 60... will settle for 50+... would prefer 60-70. More than 70 is a waste, IMO.

I'm thinking more in terms of a FB, not fumble, not ridiculously fast type returner, so was presuming vision may be a lower priority....

Edit: Actually asking regarding my pHB who i have decided to "convert" to a returner