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darncat
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Originally posted by Farlig
WL championship dual threat QB says otherwise: http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4656937

Can it work? Yes, but it takes the right OC.


this is the only correct answer
 
darncat
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Originally posted by sniper24
So what about just a normal scrambling QB? Should a scrambling QB used only for rushing start with agility and cap it before even thinking about putting skill points into speed? Should speed be trained only early on?


I would say yes, if by 'normal scrambling' you mean 'run first'. speed should be in the multi-train.
If you put SP into speed before the 3 majors, it might work in the youth age leagues, but will suffer long term
 
darncat
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Scrambling is the wrong word. There is no scrambling in GLB. It never got coded in. The QB has 2 distinct modes.

#1 There is traditional passing mode. Drop back to pass and look for targets. If the QB is moving during this phase he takes a huge hit to pass accuracy. There is no "climbing the pocket". You want slow speed, low agility on a passer so that they can't move.

#2 There is running mode. The QB will pull the ball down and attempt to run. The problems with this are: a: the system is broken -- there's no way to control when the QB will do this, or which direction he moves (most of the time it's be directly into the closest defender instead of away from them). b: When the QB does do it, He cannot go back into passing mode. Once he's running that's it. There is no "keeping the play alive" So there will never be any true "scrambling".

There are pQBs (passing) and rQBs (running). rQBs are built like elusive HBs and do designed QB run plays, and maybe throw the occasional screen pass behind the LoS.

Forget scrambling as in 95% of the greatest pass plays in NFL history (THE Catch, Helmet Catch, basically every Aaron Rodgers throw, Minnesota Miracle, etc.). It doesn't exist in GLB.



This doesn't make sense. You never want low agility on a QB. No matter how good a QBs throwing is,
without agility he has no footwork and is liable to throw a bad pass at any time, and under real pressure, he's garbage.

So far as climbing the pocket goes, my QB does all the time (probably too much, to be frank):
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2928922&pbp_id=405040
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2932239&pbp_id=239549
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2928922&pbp_id=405216
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2932197&pbp_id=176628
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2928903&pbp_id=207210
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2924778&pbp_id=527950
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2920188&pbp_id=383041
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2920213&pbp_id=696270

Scrambling too; there's some better than this but i couldn't find right away:
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2924854&pbp_id=744968
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2920165&pbp_id=185447
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2920162&pbp_id=119982
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=2920199&pbp_id=508984

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. There's nothing that will work 100% of the time
 
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by darncat


So far as climbing the pocket goes, my QB does all the time (probably too much, to be frank):

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. There's nothing that will work 100% of the time

You're implying that because the few cherry-picked plays you showed happened to be completed passes that your QB is somehow better because he dances around. Those passes also would have been completed if your QB was stationary. For every one miracle play you'll have 100 where it didn't do any good, or even hurts the throw.

So in the 60-ish seasons of WL there has been 1 QB, that was technically dual threat, who was built on the Deep Passer archetype who had some success as a power runner and a passer who compiled 2500 yards of total offense, one magic season with a customized offense built for that QB.

Ok, so maybe it's not technically impossible, but neither is winning the Power Ball jackpot for $650 million.

If it was actually a good idea, there would have been hundreds of these builds by now.


Edited by TJ Spikes on Aug 2, 2018 09:36:26
 
Farlig
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Well, there was the original one who has a gold WL trophy as well:

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4598618

It’s a conceptual issue and knowing when and how to use them more than a can you build a productive on issue.
 
ewinter43
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Originally posted by sniper24
I've heard generally that we must either choose a passer or a runner QB here on GLB. But has anyone ever actually tried building a dual threat QB successfully? What's the conventional wisdom on this - just that there aren't enough skill points to make him effective in both?


What would the build look like? Scrambler QB

Atty 1 - Speed
Atty 2 - Throwing
Atty 3 - Agility
Atty 4 - Vision
Atty 5 - Strength
Atty 6 - Vision


Would a player like this ever be elite at the higher tier leagues?


Dont know but I am currently making one. Pretty sure he will suck but I'll let you know how he ends up in a few seasons
 
darncat
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Originally posted by TJ Spikes

You're implying that because the few cherry-picked plays you showed happened to be completed passes that your QB is somehow better because he dances around. Those passes also would have been completed if your QB was stationary. For every one miracle play you'll have 100 where it didn't do any good, or even hurts the throw.

So in the 60-ish seasons of WL there has been 1 QB, that was technically dual threat, who was built on the Deep Passer archetype who had some success as a power runner and a passer who compiled 2500 yards of total offense, one magic season with a customized offense built for that QB.

Ok, so maybe it's not technically impossible, but neither is winning the Power Ball jackpot for $650 million.

If it was actually a good idea, there would have been hundreds of these builds by now.




No, you literally said it doesn't happen, and you are easily proven wrong. end of story.
On top of that you advised people to make their passing QBs with no agility, which is the worst advice of all time.
People, don't listen to that nonsense
 
lexden11
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Originally posted by darncat
No, you literally said it doesn't happen, and you are easily proven wrong. end of story.
On top of that you advised people to make their passing QBs with no agility, which is the worst advice of all time.
People, don't listen to that nonsense


Darncat - you are 1 of the worst posters here.
TJ is 1 of the best.
 
darncat
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Originally posted by lexden11
Darncat - you are 1 of the worst posters here.
TJ is 1 of the best.


please try to make QB with 48 agility
please please please- i promise i'll laugh at your stupid ass, a lot
 
darncat
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Originally posted by sniper24
I've heard generally that we must either choose a passer or a runner QB here on GLB. But has anyone ever actually tried building a dual threat QB successfully? What's the conventional wisdom on this - just that there aren't enough skill points to make him effective in both?


What would the build look like? Scrambler QB

Atty 1 - Speed
Atty 2 - Throwing
Atty 3 - Agility
Atty 4 - Vision
Atty 5 - Strength
Atty 6 - Vision


Would a player like this ever be elite at the higher tier leagues?


don't listen to the hater tj stile or any of the other trolls
you can make a dual threat or any other type dot you want, its your player
what i'm pointing out, is that the ppl w/ experience making scrambling QBs will advise to start w/ the majors
on the other hand, the ppl that didn't know what to try, or never bothered to try at all, just want to whine
and tell you not to do it, for a whole host of mostly inaccurate reasons. do not listen to them at all
(and never, ever ever think a QB doesn't need agility at all)
 
Seric
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Issue is not a single person has told him NOT to. They simply stated that it's not effective for the most part. Is it possible to work? Sure. Is it likely to work? Not without the proper system. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally No one said no agility either. TJ said LOW agility. To put it in words you'll understand better, don't load up on it and ignore more important skills. If you're going to criticize what people say, at least criticize what they said, not want you want to act like they said.

 
RiverRat2
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Originally posted by Farlig
Well, there was the original one who has a gold WL trophy as well:

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4598618

It’s a conceptual issue and knowing when and how to use them more than a can you build a productive on issue.


 
Theo Wizzago
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Of all those that have posted, Farlig is the only one that hit the nail on the head. Without the RIGHT OC... and without the RIGHT SUPPORTING DOTS... the Dual Threat QB really doesn't work NEARLY as well as having 2 dedicated QB's on a team. One that is an awesome passer and one that is 99.9% a rusher only. Nearly ALL teams that do both styles of play (RQB and Throwing the ball as well) use this approach. If it's a stupid way to do it, then why is it the #1 approach?
Seric is right. NOBODY said NOT to build one... the question was asked if a Dual Threat QB works and that answer has been thoroughly given several times. IMO, unless you have exactly what you need to make a Dual Threat QB not only succeed but shine well enough to win titles, then you are likely to feel what so many others have who have tried this approach... dismay. In the end, the choice is the OP's.
Hell... I've built more damn quirky dots than likely anyone else here. I've always thought that building 'Rubber Stamp' styles is about as boring as watching grass grow in the Gobi desert. So much so that me and jdbolick have butted heads enough I suspect he still has a raging headache (I got no brains left so I don't get headaches). If the OP wants to give it a go, good luck. He has more than enough input now to either succeed or get ulcers trying.
 
darncat
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Of all those that have posted, Farlig is the only one that hit the nail on the head. Without the RIGHT OC... and without the RIGHT SUPPORTING DOTS... the Dual Threat QB really doesn't work NEARLY as well as having 2 dedicated QB's on a team. One that is an awesome passer and one that is 99.9% a rusher only. Nearly ALL teams that do both styles of play (RQB and Throwing the ball as well) use this approach. If it's a stupid way to do it, then why is it the #1 approach?
Seric is right. NOBODY said NOT to build one... the question was asked if a Dual Threat QB works and that answer has been thoroughly given several times. IMO, unless you have exactly what you need to make a Dual Threat QB not only succeed but shine well enough to win titles, then you are likely to feel what so many others have who have tried this approach... dismay. In the end, the choice is the OP's.
Hell... I've built more damn quirky dots than likely anyone else here. I've always thought that building 'Rubber Stamp' styles is about as boring as watching grass grow in the Gobi desert. So much so that me and jdbolick have butted heads enough I suspect he still has a raging headache (I got no brains left so I don't get headaches). If the OP wants to give it a go, good luck. He has more than enough input now to either succeed or get ulcers trying.


I'd agree with this but add that without the right supporting dots, no player can be good, be it a crazy experimental
or a standard drop back passer. That being said, the typically run offenses and typical player builds lend themselves
to work with the normally built QBs, by and large. These typical offenses and players won't lend themselves necessarily
to a dual threat type QB system. You probably need very specific tactics and dots to make this work, and be very active,
because a set and forget offensive AI won't usually do the trick for this.

I'd like to point out that i personally feel nothing is fool proof, as i stated earlier, and this is certainly not.
Sometimes it can work a charm and other days not so much, just like anything else. I posted the links to those plays
simply to illustrate that what dude was saying is incorrect- QBs can move in the pocket, and can scramble;
whether or not this makes for an outstanding player is determined however by much more than that.
I'd also like to reiterate i think this goes beyond scrambling QBs: i've noticed it somewhat common the attitude
that pocket and drop back passers don't need agility at all. That would be a big mistake.
 
Seric
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and again, no one said no agility. All that was said was low agility. You don't need 68+ in agility for a pocket passer, when the SP that is used to get it from 61 or higher could definitely be used to better means in more important skills. While some people may have said it, it wasn't said in this thread, so to continually bring it up is redundant because you're not proving anyone wrong by saying it.
 
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