Warrior General Games

Is power Tackler VA worth the benefit of not using wrap up?

my SS will finish w/ ~85 Str ~80 tck ~94 agi. right now i have a 5% MT, a 5% DBall, a 5% AFake, and i rolled a 5% FF. If i get the Power Tackler VA, should I still get the 5% FF, or maybe another MT instead? Is it going to cause a lot of misses switching to normal from wrap-up tackle?

any HH i have i go with at least 1 FF% and balanced. your guy is a little weak but still may be worth going the FF way

Power Tackler is one of the best VAs in the game. The bonus to tackling behind the line is always active, no matter what your tackle setting is.

For future builds, if you're going to use Power Tackler, I would build for much more tackling than an 80 endbuild number there. Strength is fine but not with 80 tackling. Think of them as tandem Skills (for tackling purposes)... having one low and the other high.. or both mediocre... doesn't work well usually. And, of the two, a high Tackling (with medium strength [meaning 80-90] ) will get you more value than a high Strength (with medium tackling). A 95+ tackling with an 85 strength and Power Tackling will allow you to not use wrap-up and still have a nice and crunchy dot (as long as you get at least one 5% make tackle piece.)

Looks like he still has some time to adjust his build. His SS is only level 42 and he said his end build will be those number.

Also this.

I use it on any dot that blitzes or attempts to break blocks to get into the backfield. Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Power Tackler is one of the best VAs in the game. The bonus to tackling behind the line is always active, no matter what your tackle setting is.

It also depends on who you are forcing fumbles on. If you're targeting 260 pound power RBs, you need to be as heavy as possible, stack 25%+ make tackle, and then get the tackling SAs to counter-act power thru

He isn ' t a hhSS , but a comboSS . Mainly his job is to stop the outside run , cover fast backs out of the backfield , or blitz . Occasionally he will cover a TE or play the strong side of the 2 deep . He often has the assignment in coverage against the fastest and most agile player on the offense , so he does need to be very quick . Since he makes many TFL , I was thinking Power Tackler made sense anyhow , and with some MT AEQ I could switch to normal tackle for the FF bonus . I will probably do that , and if we play a team that constantly runs to the outside with 260 LB pHBs , I can always switch to wrap - up for that game if need be and still get the bonus for TFL .

IMO, if you are building a TRUE multi-purpose player (in your case, a combo SS) whose job description ALSO covers a multi-purpose function (not only stopping outside runs but being useful in pass coverage as well)... then I really wouldn't go for trying to force fumbles (meaning no power tackler) and seriously concentrate on TACKLING period (meaning 2 MT pieces and much more Tackling skill than you project in the end). Reason? If you truly want to build a dot that is a fumble causing machine then your dot isn't going to be very good at covering passes because you really NEED to concentrate on those skills to CAUSE fumbles (Strength, Speed, Tackling) which means Jumping and Agility and those VA's and SA's that help in pass coverage aren't a priority and likely won't be a part of your end result. Again, my opinion but there's a reason Dual Threat QB's are generally laughed at (because they're not really good enough at EITHER part of the game... passing OR running). Same goes for building multi-purpose dots. It CAN be done... but you need to stay away from the purpose style of building and make SURE you're good enough to do the jobs you're tasked with (in your case, both pass defense AND making sure the outside runs get TACKLED).

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
IMO, if you are building a TRUE multi-purpose player (in your case, a combo SS) whose job description ALSO covers a multi-purpose function (not only stopping outside runs but being useful in pass coverage as well)... then I really wouldn't go for trying to force fumbles

Sage advice from the old fart, once again.

Your best bet for a HH, is a linebacker. The Defense Coordinator can use the LB custom slots in the depth chart to get your player on the field in the right situation.

Second best (oddly enough) would be a CB, because again, the CBs have specific slots that can be called in when needed.

Forcing Fumbles is a compound action. The first part is making the tackle by a large enough margin to initiate the force fumble threshold. If that activates, then a contested FF roll can happen.

If you really want to go after fumbles as a SS, then go for it all out. Let your coordinator figure out substitutions and formations to cover your weaknesses in coverage. Maybe call a 4-2-5 Nickel, and send the extra CB back to cover. So your SS can play at the line like an extra LB.

The more you try to make your dot do, the less effective he'll be at everything.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
IMO, if you are building a TRUE multi-purpose player (in your case, a combo SS) whose job description ALSO covers a multi-purpose function (not only stopping outside runs but being useful in pass coverage as well)... then I really wouldn't go for trying to force fumbles (meaning no power tackler) and seriously concentrate on TACKLING period (meaning 2 MT pieces and much more Tackling skill than you project in the end). Reason? If you truly want to build a dot that is a fumble causing machine then your dot isn't going to be very good at covering passes because you really NEED to concentrate on those skills to CAUSE fumbles (Strength, Speed, Tackling) which means Jumping and Agility

I think your underestimating agility, as if you don't have much vision, then you need more agility to react. Plus, it helps with your players reaction to tackles as well as helping with Jukes. Having agility can help with those times your Hard Hitter is mismatched with a coverage possibly making a KL or a deflected pass.

Originally posted by Sonic
I think your underestimating agility, as if you don't have much vision, then you need more agility to react. Plus, it helps with your players reaction to tackles as well as helping with Jukes. Having agility can help with those times your Hard Hitter is mismatched with a coverage possibly making a KL or a deflected pass.

Perhaps... but most HH builds I've worked with, built, or seen, don't really pound agility nearly as much as non-HH/force fumble builds. More than 70 for sure... but not like a good coverage dot needs (which would be at LEAST 85 or better, IMO). I think it goes back to an old Bort Q&A answer (I wrote down the gist of it but have no idea where to find the original replies) where Bort was asked about fumbles and his reply was basically that; on the defensive side, Tackling skill, Strength, weight of dot, SPEED (meaning the speed the dot is traveling) of dot, and angle of collision (in which head-on collisions were, by far, the most likely to cause the fumbles) were the main factors which then become augmented by EQ, AEQ, SA's and VA's. On the offensive side mostly the same things... Carrying, Strength, Weight, Speed, and angle of collision... then any EQ, AEQ, SA's and VA's that help avoid fumbles. All of this applied at the time of contact.

In a way you're agreeing with me that a HH-Force Fumble dot, if built RIGHT, wouldn't be very good at pass coverage because of the lack of agility... and, when it comes to tackling, part of trying to force fumbles is accepting that you ARE going to miss tackles because of not using 'wrap-up'. TBH, in my opinion, you really don't want very many purely build HH-force fumble dots to play on your defense... Two at most(?)... their best use is on ST's where they tend to shine better.

Originally posted by Seric
Looks like he still has some time to adjust his build. His SS is only level 42 and he said his end build will be those number.

Not enough to get it up to 90+.
The low Tackling Attribute will be the real Swan-Song on this discussion.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Originally posted by Sonic

I think your underestimating agility, as if you don't have much vision, then you need more agility to react. Plus, it helps with your players reaction to tackles as well as helping with Jukes. Having agility can help with those times your Hard Hitter is mismatched with a coverage possibly making a KL or a deflected pass.

Perhaps... but most HH builds I've worked with, built, or seen, don't really pound agility nearly as much as non-HH/force fumble builds. More than 70 for sure... but not like a good coverage dot needs (which would be at LEAST 85 or better, IMO). I think it goes back to an old Bort Q&A answer (I wrote down the gist of it but have no idea where to find the original replies) where Bort was asked about fumbles and his reply was basically that; on the defensive side, Tackling skill, Strength, weight of dot, SPEED (meaning the speed the dot is traveling) of dot, and angle of collision (in which head-on collisions were, by far, the most likely to cause the fumbles) were the main factors which then become augmented by EQ, AEQ, SA's and VA's. On the offensive side mostly the same things... Carrying, Strength, Weight, Speed, and angle of collision... then any EQ, AEQ, SA's and VA's that help avoid fumbles. All of this applied at the time of contact.

In a way you're agreeing with me that a HH-Force Fumble dot, if built RIGHT, wouldn't be very good at pass coverage because of the lack of agility... and, when it comes to tackling, part of trying to force fumbles is accepting that you ARE going to miss tackles because of not using 'wrap-up'. TBH, in my opinion, you really don't want very many purely build HH-force fumble dots to play on your defense... Two at most(?)... their best use is on ST's where they tend to shine better.

hhSS is the Sheriff of the Secondary. There is a reason that Agility is the Minor here.
Tackling, Speed, Strength, and Vision. That's your focus, on the hhSS.

The 5% PD is a waste, without good Agility & Jumping.
You will need more than 280 days, to make the player that you speak effective.

No, you seem to misunderstand. This is a combo SS, I specifically said not a HH. He will have 160 spd w / EQ and right now looking at 94 agi (i can go a couple lower if i want more than 80~ tackle or 60ish~ jumping) so that seems like PD % is not a waste- he gets PDs fairly consistently even without yet wearing the PD% AEQ. However, he isn't a CB, and he plays outside runs as often as he covers, so he also has a +5%MT AEQ and the CEQ will be in MT%. So my question was what to do with the 4th AEQ. I rolled a FF+5% and didn't want to roll more in hopes of a CS piece and end up wasting BT so not getting my whole 4th season of multi-train, especially as I'm not sure how worthwhile blowing up his CS will be since he never plays the last line of defense anyhow. So my hope is that with strength way better than most of the players he is tackling, that piece can help cause fumbles and thus be worth more than a 3rd MT piece or a CS that may only rarely come into play... and i can still buy a decent CS with SP anyhow