Warrior General Games

It's worth noting that the "FAVORED" bonus happens AFTER diminishing returns, which is good. If you have 10 in a SA that's favored, and the bonus is hypathetically 30%, you do NOT get 13 points in the SA with diminishing value after 10. Rather you get the value of 10 points in the SA, with an additional 30% boost. This is especially important when therorizing the importance of SA's over 10, because say the 13th point in a SA is only 40% effective compared to a 1-10 point. Well that 40% point would get that full 30% favored boost so it would be now equivalent to a 52% effect point.

tl;dr

I remember reading that (glad it wasn't just me) but have never been able to find the quote.

iirc... Bort said He wouldn't recommend pushing an SA beyond 13

Of course, who knows what that actually means.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

Let's explore the "favored SA" for a moment.

For a power HB, both "Lower the Shoulder" and "Power Thru" are favored. Its understood that Power Thru is more effective than Lower the Shoulder.

If we assume the underlying build is a solid "break tackle" candidate, which do you like better:

A. +8 LTS, +11 Power Thru

or

B. +7 LTS, +12 Power Thru

?

Minimum LTS, 13 Power Thru tbh. 11 is fine, but the extra from the last couple points is prolly worth. Bort did say the effects of additional points doesn't become negligible until 12-13. On SA's where level's increase both frequency AND power, I'd guess maxing about 11 is likely optimal. Juke would be another candidate for this (IE SA's so powerful they define your build/success anyhow)

Honestly on high strength power backs, if you look at the PBP (ctrl+F searching a specific HB's replays) you'll see lower the shoulder is VERY RARELY leading to successful broken tackles, while power thru is VERY OFTEN leading to brokent tackles.

For a powerback I'd say (assuming you have the other attributes needed to get it to fire...

Power Thru >>> Hurdle > Spin > Stiff Arm >>>> Lower The Shoulder.

imo fwiw.

no Surge?

Originally posted by reddogrw
no Surge?

Sorry, was just listing break tackle SA's.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
This isn't awful advice. Majors and minors are pretty close on a 5 major dot.

I think you'd want a goal of 158-160 spd, and I'd recommend hitting 13 route run, 13 sticky hands, and 11 juke (split CE on 2 route run 2 sticky) . Spd then agi then catching. Hitting around 68 vision to work with the juke and the 15% vision bonus from slot machine va. 4 ae so you can still go 21-22.5% in both fake% and catch%.

Sounds fun at the very least. Would be interesting to see a favored 13 with a +45% boost after diminishing returns on a speed dot.


I really like the thought process here, but have a few observations/questions:

Does the (comparative) lack of investment in "First Step" and "Quick Cut" bother you any?

If one uses the possession receiver tree, you can't get to 11 Juke without using other equipment to get there?

I'm assuming "Catch Fake" won't be a large investment for this particular build?

What would you consider the minimum "strength" attribute to be at end build? Since it gets no love in the attribute (its neither a major nor a minor), it seems like it can't be taken too high, but the WR will be taking some hits since he's working primarily out of the slot?

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

I really like the thought process here, but have a few observations/questions:

Does the (comparative) lack of investment in "First Step" and "Quick Cut" bother you any?

If one uses the possession receiver tree, you can't get to 11 Juke without using other equipment to get there?

I'm assuming "Catch Fake" won't be a large investment for this particular build?

What would you consider the minimum "strength" attribute to be at end build? Since it gets no love in the attribute (its neither a major nor a minor), it seems like it can't be taken too high, but the WR will be taking some hits since he's working primarily out of the slot?

You don't get the full explosion of 1st Step with this build. Probably best to skip it. QC is balanced by RR.

I'd do a 4aeq build and sacrifice a piece on Juke. Then you'd go 1-1-1-2-4 in the bottom tree. Save BTs and SPs.

I'd definitely keep CF in the build, since it's a home run style.

Strength could be trained up to 30ish, and then if there's any stray SPs they can go there.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Minimum LTS, 13 Power Thru tbh. 11 is fine, but the extra from the last couple points is prolly worth. Bort did say the effects of additional points doesn't become negligible until 12-13. On SA's where level's increase both frequency AND power, I'd guess maxing about 11 is likely optimal. Juke would be another candidate for this (IE SA's so powerful they define your build/success anyhow)

Honestly on high strength power backs, if you look at the PBP (ctrl+F searching a specific HB's replays) you'll see lower the shoulder is VERY RARELY leading to successful broken tackles, while power thru is VERY OFTEN leading to brokent tackles.

For a powerback I'd say (assuming you have the other attributes needed to get it to fire...

Power Thru >>> Hurdle > Spin > Stiff Arm >>>> Lower The Shoulder.

imo fwiw.



I will second Wisemans assessment of LtS. I have a high STR PHB and LtS rarely fires. Maybe 10 times a season. Power Through on the other hand is is constantly firing. So my opinion is pick one or the other depending on your build. investing in both seems to be a waste.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes


I'd definitely keep CF in the build, since it's a home run style.




For you and Wise and anyone else regarding such a build, would you prefer +11 Juke and +7 Catch Fake, or +10 Juke with +8 Catch Fake?

Overall value says 10 juke.

You're pushing both RR and SH, so they should get CEQ +1 tree, plus they're the greens, and you're stacking the VA bonus.

If you push more juke, then you'd also have to push the other SAs.

Instead of 1-1-1-2-4, you'd have to do 1-1-2-3-5

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
For you and Wise and anyone else regarding such a build, would you prefer +11 Juke and +7 Catch Fake, or +10 Juke with +8 Catch Fake?

10 juke 0 catch fake. If you can't afford to take these firing sa attached to a battle roll (fake vs anti fake) to 10+, don't invest in them imo. Imo juke is clearly better than catch fake if you are picking one.

I'd still take quick cut to like 6 since it's one of the best SA in the game.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
10 juke 0 catch fake. If you can't afford to take these firing sa attached to a battle roll (fake vs anti fake) to 10+, don't invest in them imo. Imo juke is clearly better than catch fake if you are picking one.

I'd still take quick cut to like 6 since it's one of the best SA in the game.

Thank you, I'll re-visit this question a little later in the build (actually 2 builds--1 in progress and 1 I'll start next season).

out routes and in routes, with about 105 agility, of course as much speed as you can get and some quick cut from the slot is an open man all game. someone correct me if it doesn't work in world league. it isn't a play or a position that will make an offense, but it can help if you see the opponent clearly has a cb3 with low agility and no change direction type stuff, low vision, etc.

This works really well with a tight end as well, higher agility and quick cut running out and in routes.

Originally posted by keysor1
out routes and in routes, with about 105 agility, of course as much speed as you can get and some quick cut from the slot is an open man all game. someone correct me if it doesn't work in world league. it isn't a play or a position that will make an offense, but it can help if you see the opponent clearly has a cb3 with low agility and no change direction type stuff, low vision, etc.

This works really well with a tight end as well, higher agility and quick cut running out and in routes.

Do any cbs have low agility or vision ?

Originally posted by lexden11
Originally posted by keysor1

out routes and in routes, with about 105 agility, of course as much speed as you can get and some quick cut from the slot is an open man all game. someone correct me if it doesn't work in world league. it isn't a play or a position that will make an offense, but it can help if you see the opponent clearly has a cb3 with low agility and no change direction type stuff, low vision, etc.

This works really well with a tight end as well, higher agility and quick cut running out and in routes.

Do any cbs have low agility or vision ?

only bad ones

Whats a good vision for CBs?