Warrior General Games

I am thinking Death Grip needs Str to fire effectively.
Any thoughts on these two.

Sure tackler is basically a guard against RNGs. It does what it says and I think most players on defense should have it especially in this run heavy climate.

Death Grip I've never personally chosen and I have only been asked to use it on two occasions. In the S20s a DC I respected very much jaxinthebox liked using it in combination with FF safeties, I just don't really build defenses that way.

I imagine they work in a similar fashion though, with both involving the MT score. DG may also use other attributes though I don't know any Bort quotes about it. Sure Tackler is clearly just a reroll of the tackle score should he miss in the first place.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
Sure tackler is basically a guard against RNGs.

this is exactly right. if you're not a good tackler, don't bother, you'll just miss again even if it fires. if you're an awesome tackler, how important is it to basically eliminate 45% of your missed tackles?

DG was implemented at the same time Opportunist was. it's for a team concept defense, where one dot holding on gives opportunities for other dots to do stuff

turns out no one wants to give up almost half of their VAs for a 45% shot at forcing a fumble, on a situation that rarely happens in the game

If you have a dot that is in an important tackling position (whether because of volume as, for instance, some defenses might by design to funnel a lot of runs to certain tacklers, or because of responsibility like a last man on defense) then it often makes sense to give that dot some tackling VAs. Sure Tackler and Textbook Tackler are easy choices. If he's a smaller or weaker player (like many FS builds) then David vs Goliath is another choice. But for a larger, stronger player the next best choice is probably Death Grip. DG won't increase that player's tackles but it will significantly slow the back down for a time while the player manages to continue hanging on, and during that time teammates can arrive and finish the play (or force fumbles if built appropriately, as some have noted). Strength helps a lot in holding on so as mentioned weaker players should instead be looking at DvG.

I would never endorse David vs Goliath. The damage it does to your dot simply isn't worth the single use you'll get out of it. I say single use because once it fires, your dot is gonna be OOC for quite a while as the byproduct of a successful DvG tackle is DOUBLE the energy loss AND losing a chunk of your dot's morale as well.

Of the two that Shepster asked about, I use to be 100% sold on Sure tackler until someone pointed out that it simply allows a re-roll of the tackle... IF it fires... and that it gives no bonuses to making the tackle (just a second chance)... a tackle that you failed on the first try... and likely will fail a second one as well... UNLESS the win/lose parameters are SO close that you just might win if you did get a second shot at it.

The good thing about Death Grip is that if you successfully get it to fire then, while you won't make the tackle, you WILL slow the dot down and that allows other defenders to come to your rescue.

I don't think Strength has anything to do with either one firing. They're both simple VA's that get a basic % of happening based off of how many levels you've got into the VA. 4% for each level of Sure Tackler and 3% for each level of Death Grip. The fact that Death Grip has the lower firing % would tell me that Bort and company considered that VA to be more effective of the two.

I had a figure of 40 str will have to up to 50/60 now.
It did in fact point out which of my DB's was missing what. The player missing is at 30 str.

Thanks to all.

I see Coyote.
the miss is still a miss is sounding correct to me .The death grip seemed to me to be a added use
Now could I select a better VA than DG ,and which player could better use such a VA.

Sure tackler
Its not the FF i was looking for ,But I have to agree now its not a VA i need to be excited about.

People make a lot of talk about how it is so unlikely to make the second roll if you failed the first (or the analogous argument against Long Reach) but that's hogwash because you dont know what the variables in the equation look like. Speculating on that just isn't going to get you anywhere.

Ive been using Sure Tackler forever and my players always make a good deal more tackles with it.

As far as DvG I am also going to strongly disagree with you as a missed tackle is worse than the backup having to take over for another play or two. This is especially true for DBs.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
People make a lot of talk about how it is so unlikely to make the second roll if you failed the first (or the analogous argument against Long Reach) but that's hogwash because you dont know what the variables in the equation look like. Speculating on that just isn't going to get you anywhere.

Ive been using Sure Tackler forever and my players always make a good deal more tackles with it.

As far as DvG I am also going to strongly disagree with you as a missed tackle is worse than the backup having to be in for another play or two. This is especially true for DBs.

especially if your backups and starters are both as good

coverage LB's and DB's should have DvG, Sure Tackler (maybe even Death Grip) as well as a piece of MT% (2 for LB's)

Originally posted by Sly
If you have a dot that is in an important tackling position (whether because of volume as, for instance, some defenses might by design to funnel a lot of runs to certain tacklers, or because of responsibility like a last man on defense) then it often makes sense to give that dot some tackling VAs. Sure Tackler and Textbook Tackler are easy choices. If he's a smaller or weaker player (like many FS builds) then David vs Goliath is another choice. But for a larger, stronger player the next best choice is probably Death Grip. DG won't increase that player's tackles but it will significantly slow the back down for a time while the player manages to continue hanging on, and during that time teammates can arrive and finish the play (or force fumbles if built appropriately, as some have noted). Strength helps a lot in holding on so as mentioned weaker players should instead be looking at DvG.

LOL Sly...

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
People make a lot of talk about how it is so unlikely to make the second roll if you failed the first (or the analogous argument against Long Reach) but that's hogwash because you dont know what the variables in the equation look like. Speculating on that just isn't going to get you anywhere.

Ive been using Sure Tackler forever and my players always make a good deal more tackles with it.

As far as DvG I am also going to strongly disagree with you as a missed tackle is worse than the backup having to take over for another play or two. This is especially true for DBs.

It's not the amount of 'firing' that was the issue, it's the fact that if your dot failed the original tackle then it is likely (although not entirely impossible) that it will fail if given a 'second chance' especially since the VA does NOTHING to add to your ability to make the tackle. It simply gives you two tries. Now for LB's that (usually) have decent enough strength to begin with as well as more tackling than most CB's do, then it's a decent VA because they're more likely to succeed if given a second try.

As for DVG, you only see the 'stamina' drain and if that was the ONLY damage it does to your dot then, yes... it would be a very good VA. However... it also hammers your dots morale and that is what I cannot abide. It's bad enough that teams use moral damaging VA's and SA's to cause morale spirals... either that or you're forced to counter it with 'morale protection' VA's and SA's rather than other VA's and SA's you would use if that wasn't an issue... it's bad enough that having you OWN VA (or SA) cause YOU morale damage on top of everything else, I just say no. I suppose if you wanted DvG bad enough then I would advise you to have something in the realm of 90+ confidence on your dot.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
As for DVG, you only see the 'stamina' drain and if that was the ONLY damage it does to your dot then, yes... it would be a very good VA. However... it also hammers your dots morale and that is what I cannot abide. It's bad enough that teams use moral damaging VA's and SA's to cause morale spirals... either that or you're forced to counter it with 'morale protection' VA's and SA's rather than other VA's and SA's you would use if that wasn't an issue... it's bad enough that having you OWN VA (or SA) cause YOU morale damage on top of everything else, I just say no. I suppose if you wanted DvG bad enough then I would advise you to have something in the realm of 90+ confidence on your dot.

Theo,

I'm not trying to be rude, but you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, dots lose morale and energy when they miss a tackle anyway. The spirit of DvG is that you still get the tackle, while your morale and energy still go down as if you had missed. One dot on the field losing a little bit of energy and morale due to DvG firing, is a lot better than missing the tackle and giving up a TD. With a TD, the entire defense will chase after the ball carrier, so the everyone loses energy. Then when the TD is scored, everyone on the D loses morale. All of my weaker DBs/LBs get DvG, and I've managed more than a few good ones, without ever going anywhere near 90 confidence (seriously, lol'ed at that).

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
It's not the amount of 'firing' that was the issue, it's the fact that if your dot failed the original tackle then it is likely (although not entirely impossible) that it will fail if given a 'second chance' especially since the VA does NOTHING to add to your ability to make the tackle. It simply gives you two tries. Now for LB's that (usually) have decent enough strength to begin with as well as more tackling than most CB's do, then it's a decent VA because they're more likely to succeed if given a second try.

Again though, you are speculating on what the equations look like. You dont know numerically what the RNGs are so you dont know how likely or unlikely a second attempt is. The only bit of relevant evidence here is how players respond when using it vs. not using it and in my experienve (be it in CP, WL, or on a 100+ game win streak in minors) it always generously reduces missed tackles. Every player on defense will have tackles they barely miss, or get screwed with bad RNGs, there will even be times they make tackles they shouldn't because of good RNGs. But they will rarely miss tackles they should have made.

I got 2 FS' will try both style will watch result. for season.
toss in wingspan

15 DvG,15LR,10 3rd DS, 10ST ,9 Special Teams.