Warrior General Games

I feel like these two things need to be brought up again. I know how these threads can have things get lost like crazy

Originally posted by Staz
Have any of the people in that discussion paid attention to this thread: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4066692 ?

There is a few things that should be taken seriously

1. There needs to be a value for almost EVERY. SINGLE. ACTION. In my opinion, having an INT should yield a certain value, and then modifiers based on length of the return, whether it scores or not, how big of an impact this has on the game, etc.

On top of that, small actions like a three yard run will have very different impacts based on situations, what the team needs, score of the game, etc. A three yard run on 1st and 10 is no big deal. A 3 yard run on 3rd and 2 is good. A 3 yard run on 4th and 1 is bigger. A 3 yard run for a touch down is bigger yet. A 3 yard run for a TD to tie the game is huge. A 3 yard TD to take the lead is even bigger. Etc.

DO NOT JUST SAY "THIS ACTION IS WORTH THIS MANY POINTS", PLEASE. Each action should have some value assigned to it, yes, but based on your confidence, game situation, etc. there should be a modifier applied to everything. EVERYTHING.

Confidence should reduce the morale loss (%), whether it be via direct action, or the player just "deteriorating" by sitting on the bench.

2. There needs to be "intimidation". The intimidation SAs are in the game, and they need to have some sort of separate effect than just reducing overall morale. Morale = Momentum. Being afraid of a certain player doesn't directly impact your momentum, just generally influence the way you deal with things. The thread linked above gets into that, and if you'd like to read a discussion on the specific concept, go here: http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3950794 Bort already mentioned that he liked the concept, and the idea of a player v player value being kept. This would also only impact rolls and would play a small role in player performance and morale loss/gain.

3. Two key thing needs to be addressed:

- The bigger the game, the bigger the morale swings. Playoff games are a bigger deal than game 1 of the regular season. Also, being in Week 16, NEEDING to win this game to make the playoffs is a bigger deal than being in Week 16 and being 15-0 at that point. This needs to be addressed some how.

- The closer the game, the bigger your morale should be impacted. A TD run in a 75-3 blow out isn't that big of a deal. A TD run in a 13-10 game is. Especially late in the game.

4. Remove the effect of morale on physical skills, mostly. Allow morale to affect ROLLS as a modifier, not directly to their physical skills. Perhaps, if a player's morale gets so low that he "gives up", then possibly reduce his physical skills. Otherwise, we need to have morale only affect the player's roles, not actual skills. Then, if this entire point (#4) is added, we could see a use for a VA allowing a player to "fight" longer, causing him to go longer without giving up.

Originally posted by Staz
Offense:

Offensive "Running"
Carrying the ball
- Bigger gains = bigger morale gains, +% for each yard, can go negative for TFLs
- First Downs = Bigger gains, +% for 1st Down gain.
- Touchdowns = +%, % is based on game situation, down, etc. covered later

Breaking Tackle/Faking a Defender
- The bigger the broken tackle/fake, the bigger the value (lower the shoulder is less "big" than power through and/or spin, Head Fake is less impressive than Juke, etc.). ALL are included in this, even CF and PF
- Consecutive broken tackles is +% each tackle broken

Fumbles
- Loss of morale, +% of impact based on situation


Catching the Ball

Catch in Traffic
- The more defenders near you during the catch, +% for "risk"

Catching a Deflection
- +% for the severity of the deflection

Catching a Pass
- +% for being hit after the pass, each tick should change the value of this aspect, with the highest value being at the exact moment the catch is made, and reducing each tick, eventually bottoming out at whatever value is set.
- Consecutive catches +%, with value growing as the streak climbs.
- Any "special" catch has a +% associated with it, growing with difficulty of the catch (1 handed, diving, jumping)
- Just like carrying the ball, bigger gains = bigger morale gains


Passing

Completing a Pass
- Consecutive completions is +% for each completion.
- Just like with catching a pass/carrying the ball, longer gains = bigger morale gains
- Tougher the throw (higher risk value) the higher the completion morale gain is (+% for risk of throw)
- Touchdown provides +% based on score, time left, importance of the TD, etc.
- Incomplete passes follow basically "opposite" rules of completions, with a few exceptions - Risk of throw. The riskier the throw, the less morale you lose on an incompletion (easier it is, the more you lose on an inc throw) and "throwing it away" is a small morale loss.
- Poor throws = morale loss based on how poor it was
- Completions while scrambling = bigger gains

Pressure
- Longer the sack, the more morale loss
- More sacks = bigger losses (+% for each sack, consecutives get another +%)
- Hurries cause small morale loss
- If the QB tucks the ball to run, it follows "carrying the ball" morale points with small modifier, since a QB scrambling for a gain is more "impressive" than a typical run

Interceptions
- Bigger the return on the pick, the bigger the morale loss (+% for each return yard)
- Multiple INTs = Bigger morale (+% for each pick)



Blocking

Holding Blocks
- Longer the block is held, +% morale (per tick? Second?). Should be relatively small value, though
- Broken Blocks = morale loss. The quicker the break, the more the value (Assign max value, and reduce possible value per tick/second/whatever)
- If the player who sheds the block makes a play, blocker receives +x% of the ball carrier or QBs lost morale (whoever got hit/hurried/fumbles/etc.)

Pancakes
- Pancaking a defender = +%, consecutives get a slight bonus %
- Revcakes = morale loss, consecutives get +% value



Defense

Making a tackle
- Consecutive made tackles w/o a miss = +% per consecutive make. Missed tackle resets to original make tackle % boost. Consecutive misses also has a growing morale loss
- The bigger the hit, the more the morale gain (+% for big hits, monster hits and consecutives, diving tackles are lowest)
- TFL gets a gain, bigger losses = bigger morale gains (+% per yard of TFL)

Breaking a Block
- Quicker you break the block, the higher the value (see Holding Blocks under Blocking)
- If you do not break the block, morale loss is dictated by time (See Holding Blocks)

Pressure
- Hurries, consecutives get +% per.
- Sacks, same rules apply. Bigger the sack (distance) the higher the gain (small variance). Big Sack also gets a boost.

Disrupting a Pass
- Bigger the deflection, bigger the gain (+% for higher rolls), modifier for it leading to INT

Turnovers
- Forcing a fumble gets a value, and is modified by who recovers it (team). If offense does, it reduces the value, if defense does, it raises it.
- INT gets a value, and is modified by length of return (+% per yard)
- Defensive TDs are huge, so big gain there




Special Teams

Returns
- Counts as carries, but should have a slightly reduced modifier for the yards gained
- TDs get a value, more than a passing, receiving or carrying, in my opinion. Maybe same as defensive TD?

Field Goals
- Longer the FG, the bigger the gain (+% per yard)
- Misses reduce morale, the shorter the miss the more the effect (-% per yard from GP)
- Consecutive misses reduce morale, opposite with makes

Should we do something for punts?





Team Modifiers
The team, in general, should get a smaller morale impact for anything happening. If the offense scores a rushing TD, they should get a percentage of what the ball carrier's morale gain was. Being on the field = bigger impact. Being on the bench is a smaller impact.


Situational Modifiers

Score
- The closer the game, the bigger the impact. Assign a max value, and -% per point difference, with 0 as your min value for no effect based on score. This will simulate players getting more excited for a big play in a close game than a big play in a huge blow out.

Time
- Later in the game, the bigger the impact on morale. Should only kick in at the end of each half, with the 4th quarter being even bigger. I'd say 6 minutes or less, start a +% for each second, doubling the effect inside two minutes.

Game Importance
- Like mentioned previously, the bigger the game is for this team, the more the morale should be impacted. Not sure how we touch this one, though.

All situational modifiers stack onto the final value of the action

I think you should stop trying to force things down people's throats, Staz.

It gets read, I promise.


/badmood

Originally posted by Boogie21
This may be minor but...
I Matt's example from page 1: 3rd and 3 - 21 yds for TD
He has 3rd down conversion listed, then 1st down conversion right after. As I said, minor, but why points for 1st down conversion? If I ran it in for a TD I don't think either myself, nor anyone else would really care about the fact that I ran far enough for a 1st down. Just an opinion, but why add it if it really shouldn't be relavent?

Moving the chains simulates gaining confidence in ability and momentum.

Originally posted by Kirghiz
Originally posted by rangeroak

Idea: put a limit to the amount of morale loss, say 50 for example. There are players running around with 20 morale that look like they aren't even playing the game. That way the player has a chance to regain his morale and or the team to regain its morale. Kinda impossible to do that once you hit that low number.

Or......just make morale easier to recover.

Most importantly is just fixing the spectrum of a penalty that morale can inflict.

I also want to remind people that it's not just about the realism aspect. While we want morale to act in a realistic manner, we still need to be conscience of it in a game/sim sense. Realism doesn't always equate to great for dotball. There's somewhat of a spectrum with realism and ideal for an online football sim on both ends.

This looks good. I really like this.

As was stated before this crappy season even started.

remove salary caps, remove moral being based on salary, remove dumb ideas on 'flying in a private jet gets you moral points'.

In fact, roll back every change other than training since that appears to be the only thing you got right.

oh, and we told you so.

I haven't read through all the posts yet but I see a piece that is missing that is kind of disturbing, that hasn't been brought up. What effect does confidence have on all this? If I have a highly confident QB he should bounce back from an INT without a problem or even get more inspired by an opponent scoring a go ahead TD, not discouraged. I'm surprised that not one of the "advisers" brought this up in the discussion. This is a graduate level issue in the game and we are talking about the 3rd grade basics that have a long way to go before we start econometric analysis . Maybe this is what is supposed to be discussed and I apologize if this comes off wrong, but this is far more complex then what I see here.

If we are talking about this as the baseline max for rolls that could effect a player then fine, but that isn't how it is presented here. What I see as being the critical issue, is the effect vs confidence or some combination of SA's. This could be a % effect based on a set of rolls or something like that. Or just a flat out pass fail roll, which is rather simplistic and I hope would not be the direction the game takes.

I'm just a little surprised that the site would show this kind of info in such a remedial stage of development. The effect moral has in terms of game play needs to be adjusted but what we are talking about here scares me a little that we could see a low level solution to something that needs far more variables then are being discussed.

At the same point why do we need to cap morale at all? Isn't the ego an ever growing notion or shrinking for that matter. I'm making an assumption but isn't that really what "morale" is really trying to resemble. Everything that is brought up is based on the idea of doing well or poorly and having a positive or negative effect, which is much like the social definition of ego, even if Freud will tell that isn't what it means at all. With that being said morale needs to have more balance. Along with having a weight for confidence in one self, their should also be some sort of invisible tie to confidence in what the team is doing. This could be a momentum rating of some sort that could be very similar to what is being talked about right now. Momentum (or what ever you want to call it, but it is basically the tie between a player and the team)can affect a players morale, but confidence can over ride it. So what I see is a balance between team and self. A players Morale should be some combination of the two.

So instead of each action have an effect on morale, each action would be characterized to influence a players momentum or a players personal reserve in his own belief of his abilities. A team could be winning huge, but a corner could be getting beat all day long and his personal reserve could be getting very low.. At the same time a team could be losing big, but your DE has 4 sacks and is dominating the opposing tackle. This DE should be feeling great about his performance but could really be suffering in his teammates abilities.

Just reading the edited OP, I see nothing that relates morale to the score of the game. The score of the game is what truly effects morale more than any other action.

I still see massive morale spirals occuring...


These ideas are good for a conceptual idea, but when it comes to the sim it seems an awful way to go about things.
Its all comes down to, are you better then opponent? NO? Well suck even more then....Are you better then opponent? Well kick his ass even more then....

It still sounds like confidence will be quite a weak stat, its the events and losing battles that will matter way more then your confidence stat.



It seems like there should be better ways to implement confidence into the sim.

I think this big picture point is the most important one in this thread:

"Honestly, I'd just take morale out and use confidence to bring up the bottom range of various rolls... basically make confidence consistency. This seems like a lot of work for a system that, though realistic, makes games less competitive."

As many posters have said here, morale spirals will just contribute to one of the biggest issue in the game right now (non-competitive games).

Confidence could do the opposite instead and help the losing team catch up, something similar to the NBA Jam "CPU Assistance" setting. Or it could do what the quoted poster suggests, or something else.

But really, is it more important for a new morale system to be more "realistic" than the current one, like all these complected systems suggest, or should stats in GLB contribute to better games being played?

What about a team that is up 10 or 14 heading into the 4th Quarter, and decides to go prevent, cover 8, Zone all that crap.... to protect the lead.

Do we get to have a "The Drive" scenario play out? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypo-WhahYo

6:58 mark, the DL dont even have time to bat the ball down, Elway threw it so hard. But, what happens.... the DL get all kind of pressure, even just rushing 3 down lineman, and inevitably gets in the path of the ball for a knockdown.... in this game...

Do we have scenarios play out like that? Thats why there does need to be moral penalties for just about every play.

A team getting ate up by the coverage they play, should receive penalties for staying in loose coverage, and allowing themselves to be ate up. The more passes completed, should net a decrease in D's moral and positives in the O's moral.

Taking into account the O's first down's and big play's. It should be a dog eat dog scenario.

And then this: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=eqjIq1ZFZsk&feature=related

Tells you a team that is down on it's moral, is steadily gaining it back, looks like all is great, and then the wheels fall off the car. And it all comes down to individual play...

Just supporting the moral argument. I see a lot of people dont like the moral swings, but I like em. It does matter, I just think moral should be calculated on the individual level, then as a team level. Just like the effective levels for a game.

And then the All-Pro dots, should be able to fire up the other dots, if they make big plays, with the Fire It Up SA, only make it count for more in big plays of the game. Especially more towards the end of an important game.

Originally posted by Staz

- The closer the game, the bigger your morale should be impacted. A TD run in a 75-3 blow out isn't that big of a deal. A TD run in a 13-10 game is. Especially late in the game.


Not really.

Momentum is an affect which come form consecutive success. In a close game when both teams are trading punches you expect both teams plays at high level.
That specific suggestion will just make it harder to get close games, since one big play can lead to a morale death cycle for the entire team.

I'm not sure what I think of this. The implementation is going to be key, more than the little numbers for every action.

I think we should approach it from that mindset, the same pointed out early on by Tautology.

Morale should have an impact on games, but it should not be as much as it has been. Presently morale goes bad, there is no way to turn the game around.

Originally posted by tragula
Not really.

Momentum is an affect which come form consecutive success. In a close game when both teams are trading punches you expect both teams plays at high level.
That specific suggestion will just make it harder to get close games, since one big play can lead to a morale death cycle for the entire team.

You're assuming that morale will be the same "mechanic" as it is now. There shouldn't be morale spirals, imo. Players should get worn down, mentally, sure, but I don't like the spiral concept.

In a close game, a big play can pump everybody up. Can get the blood flowing of the team that made the play, and gets the fans back in the game. A big play when there is obviously no chance of winning is sort of a "Oh, cool." moment. Perhaps the momentum gain could be greater for the team that MADE the play than the momentum loss is for the team that gave up the play. That way, there isn't such a dramatic swing. Perhaps morale loss for "giving up" the play = 40% of morale gained for making the play.

Originally posted by Mat McBriar
I think you should stop trying to force things down people's throats, Staz.

It gets read, I promise.


/badmood

Not always. I know there are people like me who read the first couple pages of a thread, and the last couple. Better yet, there are some that just skip to the end. I'm looking for user feed back, not just the big men upstairs.

Besides, nobody said anything to me about all my hard work