Started May 25:
Discussion about training among testers about how to best maximize training as well as opinions on tweaks and such. It is ongoing.
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Originally posted by Kirghiz
In studying what all the spreadsheet gurus are coming up with on the training system, there are few things that are universally agreed upon. Four pieces of AEQ is the way to go, and you can't get there without some combination of normal and relaxed training for your entire career, which pretty much makes everything to do with intense obsolete.
Limiting AEQ to two or three equipped pieces is one way to go, but it would piss people off. Another is to offer up more bonus tokens for multi training. Say 3 tokens for 2 attributes, 5 or 6 tokens for 3 attributes, and 7 or 8 tokens for training 4.
We should be encouraging people to use the multi training combinations simply to make more thought go into the training process, and the best way to do that is have multi training yield more bonus tokens. What we have right now is a environment that actually encourages cap building due to only training one attribute at a time, which is fine, but the bonus token advantage of only training one attribute at a time makes using multi training really kind of something that only new players will do to screw up players.
Originally posted by PP
I'm currently multi training all of my dots lvl 50 and younger. I'm willing to go 3 pieces of AEQ for better secondary skills. I'll also use intense on my very 1st primary, though that's the only one, in certain situations. I actually think this will diversify stuff a bit more. However, I also think we're going to end up with some OMG builds that are flat out stacked with certain combos.
Originally posted by Saris
I've ran through a few build simulations and even in the best case scenarios, the most efficient multis are adding around 50 to 60 sp's to builds vs the most efficient single train combinations. But the aeq disparity is pretty large with the multi's typically being at 2 full upgrades until well into their plateu when they can consider a third, so long as there are minimal bt's spent aquiring it. Meanwhile the single trains can afford 4 as well as some reasonably priced shopping features to get excelent aeq.
So If the most generous possible exchange rate for multi trains is 30sp's = 1 fully upgraded aeq that's not looking very positive. Since even a mediocre aeq piece far exceeds that sp value if the build has respectably high primaries and any base sa's to speak of.
If there was a cap on the number of aeq at 3, then that would obviously change things. However if something like that were to be done, the sooner the better, before players go to far down the path of their current build plans.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Here is my analysis based solely on SP value. That is to say, if you trained only based on trading in bonus tokens for SPs. You may not think that is the best way to go, but the info is probably useful if you ever get to a point where you do not want to upgrade advanced eq and want to spend your bonus tokens on SPs.
Training Effciency Method
Option 1: Train relaxed for tokens and upgrade intensity. Once it is fully upgraded, switch to intense
vs.
Option 2: Train intense and upgrade intensity, continuing to train intense.
Option 2 is about 15 SPs better.
Multi-Training
This is pointless. It costs as many training points as training in succession so it's not like you get attributes higher faster. There is really no reason for anyone to multi-train ever.
Training Chart – SP Value
My chart is here: http://www.filefront.com/16551161/New%20Training.xls
-Bonus token is valued at 1/12 a SP divided by the cap level
-training % is divided by the cap level
8-21: Intense
22-36: Normal
37-48: Relaxed
49-52: Intense
53-60: Normal (Intense is only negligibly worse)
61-81: Intense (Normal is only negligibly worse at 65)
82-85: Normal
86-87: Intense
88-100: Normal
Originally posted by tpaterniti
So basically it looks to me like you can go one of two directions, either the multi-train direction that gets you tons of SPs or the advanced eq direction. I'm sure someone will meld them (i.e. I will be working on that tomorrow) to come up with a nice ratio of when to do what to both get max XP when you are young and to not handicap yourself too much in terms of advanced eq. I already figured out that training relaxed from 37 to 48 is the best possible way to train in terms of SP value anyway. Maybe multi train until 36, relaxed from 37 to 48, then intense multi-training afterward. I am not sure. I may run the numbers tomorrow and think that that was a dumb idea, but I will figure it out.
Originally posted by PP
I like the middle road, myself, on most young dots, myself...train some on multi, some straight intense/normal/light and shoot for 3 AEQ pieces. I really don't think there is that 1 exactly right way to build anymore. I could see going straight intense and enhancing a skill's training, if you are pushing it to an OMG extreme. I can see the value of going the 4 AEQ pieces and I can also see the value of my approach. Hell, I'm sure there are a handful of other approaches that also serve a purpose.
I think Saris is right that it won't be long before someone comes out with a guide...and then someone else does and yet another and another....And I doubt any of them will be horribly wrong or always right
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Looks like the problem is AEQ.
AEQ and the VA's and +%'s have been what have caused the most problem with the SIM and forced the most cookie cutter builds.
Training system is just a symptom, not the cause.
We really need to completely eliminate +% AEQ and VA's and turn them into flat bonuses that are more manageable/balanceable.
Same reason I pushed for the massive nerf to the +% attribute VA's. They became MUST HAVE not options and they screwed up the balance of the sim.
Getting rid of +% AEQ and VA's would be a huge boon for the game, despite the whining from the userbase who have been using it to 'exploit' its uber/imba/unbalanced nature.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
Restricting choices = cookie cutter, not the other way around.
Only about 1% of the GLB population knows how to effectively stack there VA and AE's. Vallhalla is not the norm.
Originally posted by Deathblade
Well, I guess I'll catch you up on the conversation.
Going for 4 AEQ is the superior option.
Whether or not the vast majority knows, or even you know...not getting 4 AEQ is just going to screw whoever doesn't get it in the long run.
And no, there's hardly any SP sacrifice while training. In fact, you can train intense for your first 6 seasons, then start training light, and have 4 pieces of AEQ by the season of your decline (7.5 AEQ upgrades per season).
Originally posted by Meatdawg
We had a system that allowed for 3 pieces of AEQ already. How many people did you see with 3 fully supported pieces? Not as many as you think.
You are projecting based on that fact the builder banks all BT, and doesn't cash in any for SP, doesn't upgrade any training levels, and doesn't buy the best +3 (5%) pieces...
Some people on this forum already have said they plan to build a different way. Id like to see your builds projected out vs a build that cashes in BT for sp with Multi training of minors. It is not as cut and dry as you make it.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
Lets just look at your last 5 season. (only training on light)
40 days regular season
8 post
8 pre
56 x 3 = 168
168 x 5 = 840 BT for those 5 seasons.
level 9 upgrades. (I wont even bother with level 10 level 72 upgrades)
9 x 24 = 216
Next lets do the cost of AE.
40 BT to make it +3, then we will go with 30 for a SA, % average.
216 + 70 = 286 per piece.
286 x 4 = 1144.
1144 - 840 = 304.
So if you factor in your whole career, with your 300 from your players first 6 seasons, and the 840 from his last 5 seasons, then yes, you would have enough for 4 pieces of AEQ upgraded to level 9.
To achieve this, you can never spend any BT on anything other then AEQ. Your build will suffer SP wise.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The training levels needs to change.
No one I have spoken to can see taking an ability above level 3. The amount you have to invest is not worth the long term gain since the long term gain is 2-3 seasons max.
You need to either be able to recoup your BT invested in leveling attributes or the cost has to be cheaper.
I would fix it like this.
Create a "pool" that you dump BT into which you can then pull from to level attributes. When you are done with that attribute, you can return the BT to the pool. You can never take BT out of the pool however. This way, you can swap your BT around and use them to level attributes, while keeping the BT invested in the pool not allowing people to take them back and spend on other things like AEQ.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Could just slightly nerf equipment as a whole. Eliminate +3 attribute prefixes and make EQ upgrade slower. Instead of upgrading every 8 levels, make it 15.
A fully upgraded level 72+ would have somewhere in the range of +26 to +34. Much tighter and controlled than the range of +46 and +58. +% would indirectly be nerfed as well, since it'd be a lower %.
You'd be making 4 AEQ the norm while giving more bonus tokens (perhaps too many with me not doing the math) to play with in the other options (training enhancements, morale boosts, etc.). All the while decreasing the importance of EQ.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
^^^We'd burn in a fire by the masses for that, btw. Just stating the obvious.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
So does this seem like a pretty good plan?
-Create a player
-Relaxed train for 10 days and use those BTs to unlock the 3 other things you want to train
-Train 4 attributes on multi-train for his first 6 season, using BTs to upgrade higher levels and also to unlock new training combos
-Start training relaxed season 7 and work towards 4 pieces of advanced eq (especially since you can still train even once your player plateaus and begins his decline)
Originally posted by Meatdawg
You will not have enough BT for 4 pieces of AEQ if you follow this path.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Once someone makes a player builder script these options and choices that everyone have now will be all but gone. The nature of MMO players is that they will go for the best way, and any time math is involved there is always a "best way".
Any way you want to make the argument about training, the fact remains that the +3 from AEQ alone is worth 18-21 SP's to the build alone when applied to an attribute at the 6th or 7th cap. That is before you factor the suffix from the AEQ, which the SA upgraded to +6 is worth 12 SP's. Forget about the attribute bonuses from upgrading, because you can get that from standard EQ.
30-33 SP's is what AEQ with an SA is effectively worth. There isn't really a way to quantify the value of percentage pieces, because you can't get % boosts any other way. Now, you'll spend 340 bonus tokens to get a piece upgraded at level 72 (100 to buy the pieces, 240 to upgrade). If you round it off and say that AEQ is worth 34 SP's, which the percent pieces probably are, that makes the conversion rate of bonus tokens to SP's in AEQ 10/1.
If you were to make cost of swapping tokens for SP's equal 10 tokens for 1 SP rather than 12, that would go a very long way toward leveling the field for those that don't want to be pigeon holed into having four pieces of AEQ. Rather than nerf AEQ you buff the BT/SP exchange and they don't realize that you nerfed the advantage to having AEQ.
I still think that multi-training needs to yield more tokens, or have a normal and light version of multi training to make it more viable, but the above suggestion would go a long way toward eliminating the AEQ advantage.
Originally posted by Zickzack
I'd still be very much in favor to limit the maximum points that you can boost a single attribute via EQ, either at 25 or 40, as it would lead to more balanced (and dare I say "realistic" builds. If a similar effect can be achieved by something like you suggest that would not be too bad either. Not too happy with the 15 levels between EQ upgrades, if that frequency is supposed to be reduced then make it more spread out, as in "every 2 levels you can upgrade one piece of EQ/AEQ". The end effect is the same, but as minor as it might seem, players will be able to make a decision about their player every two levels. Could also be interesting as you will have to decide which of your three or four AEQs you iwll upgrade, rather than just upgrading them all when you are due after 15 levels.
Originally posted by Staz
Another idea - perhaps have EQ upgrades resemble the leveling "slow down" effect. Maybe instead of every 8 levels, go
Level 8-16-24-35-45-60-72?
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Food for thought.
56 training days x 8 seasons on normal = 896 bonus tokens
56 training days x 2 seasons on Light = 336 bonus tokens
Total 1232 Bonus tokens
You can damn near support 4 pieces just by doing that.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
That is defiantly more doable. However, you are still below anything we could have trained before since normal is still < then the old normal.
This was why I was projecting builds below SP wise what we could build before but the trade off was supposed to be 3 to 4 AEQ.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=1453&page=1#24439
The most effective way I can see maintaining 4 AEQ is only going to 8 levels on pieces that produce SA's to get the +5, but take your % pieces as far as you can.
Originally posted by Catch22
I think the only thing this thread proves is the new training offers lots of different alternatives. I know I am taking some much different training paths with my players then what the current "recommended" paths being put out there are. I'm pretty sure my players will turn out just fine too.
As for the AEQ thing being OP - I guess time will tell. I think offsetting the training gains lost by going for AEQ will balance it out though but I could be wrong. If it turns out to be OP, we'll as always make adjustments as needed.
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
this has a huge upside and a huge downside
the upside is there are several "good" methods that won't be optimal. This means several people will create good players, but then see a player with a better build and decide "I need to start a new guy and try and match that build".
the downside is that there are going to be several mediocre and several bad methods that people will use. This can cause a large increase in the lack of parity in the leagues
Originally posted by tpaterniti
To rage, if you do indeed get normal intense BTs for multi training, then you can do this:
Season 1: 58 (-30 to unlock 3 multis - 20 to upgrade each one once) = 8 total
Season 2: 58 (-45 to unlock 2 more multis, -10 to upgrade each one) = 3 = 11 total
Season 3: 58 = 77 total
Season 4: 58 = 135 total
Season 5: 58 = 193 total
Season 6: 58 = 251 total
Season 7: 174 = 425 total
Season 8: 174 = 599 total
Season 9: 174 = 773 total
Season 10: 174 = 947 total
Season 11: 174 = 1121 total
It costs what, 216 BTs to upgrade a piece of advanced eq 9 times? That's 864 BTs for 4 pieces with 83 left over in 10 seasons, 257 left over in 11 seasons.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
You have to factor in the cost of the AEQ.
Its on average 70 BT per piece. So for 4, you need to account for another 280 tokens. You will be pretty close.
Originally posted by Zickzack
Actually you probably can get the first one or two a bit cheaper by going shopping for most positions, as you will still have a lot of options where to start towards your final goal. Will get harder once you have a piece or two, as normally valid options won't be valid anymore as you already have those.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Yeah, after some thought I also realized that multi-training 4 attributes in a season reduces your training to about 8 times - all the bonus you gain for multi-training you would lose in ALGs at low levels.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
So, now do you agree that multi training needs a BT buff?
Originally posted by tpaterniti
No, not really. I think it has it's use, which is probably in spots during a players 2nd-4th seasons, and probably then training only 2 or at most 3 attributes at a time. I don't think it is something anyone will use extensively regardless of BTs because it simply takes too long to do early in a player's career to be worth it (the loss of ALGs way outweighs any potential % bonus for the multi-train) and it yields too small of a benefit later in a player's career in proportion to the need for BTs. In other words, added BTs or not, no one smart will use it much regardless so if you want to add more BTs why not, but I think it is ultimately moot.
I am thinking about the training system and mulling it over so if I have new or different thoughts I will post them.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Just to clarify, you don't think that normal training on single attributes is better than intense if we remove BTs from the equation do you? Apart from BTs intense training is always either best or tied for the best.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
It isn't even close if you take away the bonus tokens entirely, you're right. The bonus tokens is the thing that puts normal over the top in most cases, other times Light is greater, again because of bonus tokens. The value of bonus tokens is generally speaking greater than the value of training gains.
A strong case could be made that intense training should offer even greater training gains than it does currently, probably just 10% more, to offset the value of bonus tokens on Light and Normal training. As of right now, intense only really makes sense when an attribute is at 20 or less, and some would argue that it doesn't even make sense than.
I see three adjustments that could be made to balance up the build process.
1. Introduce Light and Normal multi training
2. Reduce the cost of converting BT's to SP's to 10/1 to reduce the advantage of AEQ. Converting to SP's would be about the same value as AEQ this way.
3. Increase training gains of intense training by about 10% over current to offset the lack of bonus tokens from that training method.
Do those three things and I really think the math gurus would have a hard time determining that any one thing is stronger than any other. Obviously Intense, Normal, and Light would have more or less value depending on what level an attribute is at, but all three methods would have their place, multi training would have it's place, and people would be less inclined to feel like 4 AEQ's should always be their goal. If multiple build avenues is our goal, as it should be, than balancing up the build methods would go a long way to that end.
Originally posted by Catch22
1 - not sure Bort would go for - was suggested when I put forth the initial plan and his response was "if you're training multiple attributes, you're training them intense, not light"
2- I agree with this, but what do others think?
3 - the one problem I have with this goes to #1 - right now all the multi training gains are based on intense - these gains are multiplicative and are pretty large. Add another 10% and you're talking even larger gains. Not sure where I stand on this one, I'd have to look at the math a bit closer.
Originally posted by jbleich
2- I agree with this, but what do others think?
I agree just for the fact that we need to try and find ways to at least entice people to not go the AEQ route...or at the very least make it easy to have 4 pieces.
Originally posted by Catch22
the problem with 2, however, is it makes training on intense even less of an option. We could only do 2 if we did 3.
Originally posted by Staz
1. I don't see why it's restricted. Do we know WHY he said this?
2. I didn't consider this, but it would have to be ran by the userbase to see what they thought. I still don't think that'll lessen the appeal of AEQ, since it seems to be such a "must have" nowadays.
3. Either raise the value of Intense or drop the value of Normal, I guess could work.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
The other option to make multi training better is to leave it on Intense training only, but increase the training boost from multi training itself. It would have to be a very significant boost, probably 50% more than it is now on 2, 3, and 4, to offset the bonus tokens with the other training methods, and I am not sure we would want to do that.
Multi training's fatal flaw is the fact that it divides the training by however many attributes you are training, and the fact that you need to spend BT's to do it. BT's that are in short supply on that training method. In terms of cap building, single intense is better because you hit your caps faster. It is very much the step child of the training system. Somehow or other multi training needs to be viable, and one way to do that is to make it have far and away the best pure training gains. That is the only other real option we have to fix it without mucking around with everything else.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Currently
Two Attributes: cost = 4 training points, receive 2 bonus tokens, +5% bonus to all attributes being trained
Three Attributes: cost = 6 training points, receive 3 bonus tokens, +20% bonus to all attributes being trained
Four Attributes: cost = 8 training points, receive 4 bonus tokens, +30% bonus to all attributes being trained
Proposed
Two Attributes: cost = 4 training points, receive 2 bonus tokens, +7.5%% bonus to all attributes being trained
Three Attributes: cost = 6 training points, receive 3 bonus tokens, +30% bonus to all attributes being trained
Four Attributes: cost = 8 training points, receive 4 bonus tokens, +45% bonus to all attributes being trained
This would also make enhanced training more viable because the percentages would stack more. Plus, if you add a multiplicative 10% increase to Intense in general it would make the training gains pretty huge in general. I'm still not sure it would make up the difference of the bonus tokens you'd have to pay out to do it, but it would balance it up some.
Originally posted by Catch22
What if it did this instead?
Currently:
Light 1 TP = 1.5BT
Normal 1 TP = 1 BT
Intense/Multiple 1 TP = .5 BT
Suggested:
Light 1 TP = 1.5 BT
Normal 1 TP = 1 BT
Intense 1 TP = .5BT, increase % gain by 10%
2 attributes 1 TP = .5BT (cost to unlock one attribute is only 5 BT and you get the additional 5% training gain)
3 attributes 1 TP = .667BT (for a total of 4 BT as opposed to 3)
4 attributes 1 TP = .75BT (for a total of 6 BT as opposed to 4)
Originally posted by Catch22
another thing I've thought about is the cost to enhance items is probably too low. Those prices were based upon creating an item from scratch, not upgrading an item bought from the AEQ store. I'm thinking if an item is purchased from the AEQ store it needs to be more expensive to enhance.
Originally posted by kurieg
Nah, I don't think so. Look at this way - someone paying 40 SPs to add +3 attribute to a piece with an SA/% bonus on it already is paying for 20 shopping trips. That's not ridiculous.
Seriously, just upgrade Intense training or the Multi-train bonus. Increased training gains really aren't a big deal imo - they scale up very nicely. They might pack a few more SPs into a build, but they aren't doing massive nasty things wrecking the sim.
Originally posted by jdros13
agree.
If you think AEQ is overpowered you should remove it. If you want AEQ in the game, then it should be something that is attainable by anyone if they work towards it. It's fun to create dots that actually work in the game and frustrating as hell to not be able to realize your vision due to dumb luck.
Originally posted by PP
I'd tend to agree with this [Kurieg's Post Above]. Ultimately, the real issue is that the gains from training on Multi and Intense aren't quite big enough to make them attractive options to many. Personally, I will do some multi training on most of my younger dots regardless, but the biggest issue I see most pointing is that you are better off with 4 pieces of AEQ. Bumping intense and mutli a bit would make that a tougher argument.
Originally posted by Catch22
so if we upped intense by 10% (which subsequently increases the multi's) would that be enough of an incentive or should we also adjust the BT values like I talked about earlier (still be gaining at a smaller rate then normal/light but at a higher rate then current)
Discussion about training among testers about how to best maximize training as well as opinions on tweaks and such. It is ongoing.
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Originally posted by Kirghiz
In studying what all the spreadsheet gurus are coming up with on the training system, there are few things that are universally agreed upon. Four pieces of AEQ is the way to go, and you can't get there without some combination of normal and relaxed training for your entire career, which pretty much makes everything to do with intense obsolete.
Limiting AEQ to two or three equipped pieces is one way to go, but it would piss people off. Another is to offer up more bonus tokens for multi training. Say 3 tokens for 2 attributes, 5 or 6 tokens for 3 attributes, and 7 or 8 tokens for training 4.
We should be encouraging people to use the multi training combinations simply to make more thought go into the training process, and the best way to do that is have multi training yield more bonus tokens. What we have right now is a environment that actually encourages cap building due to only training one attribute at a time, which is fine, but the bonus token advantage of only training one attribute at a time makes using multi training really kind of something that only new players will do to screw up players.
Originally posted by PP
I'm currently multi training all of my dots lvl 50 and younger. I'm willing to go 3 pieces of AEQ for better secondary skills. I'll also use intense on my very 1st primary, though that's the only one, in certain situations. I actually think this will diversify stuff a bit more. However, I also think we're going to end up with some OMG builds that are flat out stacked with certain combos.
Originally posted by Saris
I've ran through a few build simulations and even in the best case scenarios, the most efficient multis are adding around 50 to 60 sp's to builds vs the most efficient single train combinations. But the aeq disparity is pretty large with the multi's typically being at 2 full upgrades until well into their plateu when they can consider a third, so long as there are minimal bt's spent aquiring it. Meanwhile the single trains can afford 4 as well as some reasonably priced shopping features to get excelent aeq.
So If the most generous possible exchange rate for multi trains is 30sp's = 1 fully upgraded aeq that's not looking very positive. Since even a mediocre aeq piece far exceeds that sp value if the build has respectably high primaries and any base sa's to speak of.
If there was a cap on the number of aeq at 3, then that would obviously change things. However if something like that were to be done, the sooner the better, before players go to far down the path of their current build plans.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Here is my analysis based solely on SP value. That is to say, if you trained only based on trading in bonus tokens for SPs. You may not think that is the best way to go, but the info is probably useful if you ever get to a point where you do not want to upgrade advanced eq and want to spend your bonus tokens on SPs.
Training Effciency Method
Option 1: Train relaxed for tokens and upgrade intensity. Once it is fully upgraded, switch to intense
vs.
Option 2: Train intense and upgrade intensity, continuing to train intense.
Option 2 is about 15 SPs better.
Multi-Training
This is pointless. It costs as many training points as training in succession so it's not like you get attributes higher faster. There is really no reason for anyone to multi-train ever.
Training Chart – SP Value
My chart is here: http://www.filefront.com/16551161/New%20Training.xls
-Bonus token is valued at 1/12 a SP divided by the cap level
-training % is divided by the cap level
8-21: Intense
22-36: Normal
37-48: Relaxed
49-52: Intense
53-60: Normal (Intense is only negligibly worse)
61-81: Intense (Normal is only negligibly worse at 65)
82-85: Normal
86-87: Intense
88-100: Normal
Originally posted by tpaterniti
So basically it looks to me like you can go one of two directions, either the multi-train direction that gets you tons of SPs or the advanced eq direction. I'm sure someone will meld them (i.e. I will be working on that tomorrow) to come up with a nice ratio of when to do what to both get max XP when you are young and to not handicap yourself too much in terms of advanced eq. I already figured out that training relaxed from 37 to 48 is the best possible way to train in terms of SP value anyway. Maybe multi train until 36, relaxed from 37 to 48, then intense multi-training afterward. I am not sure. I may run the numbers tomorrow and think that that was a dumb idea, but I will figure it out.
Originally posted by PP
I like the middle road, myself, on most young dots, myself...train some on multi, some straight intense/normal/light and shoot for 3 AEQ pieces. I really don't think there is that 1 exactly right way to build anymore. I could see going straight intense and enhancing a skill's training, if you are pushing it to an OMG extreme. I can see the value of going the 4 AEQ pieces and I can also see the value of my approach. Hell, I'm sure there are a handful of other approaches that also serve a purpose.
I think Saris is right that it won't be long before someone comes out with a guide...and then someone else does and yet another and another....And I doubt any of them will be horribly wrong or always right
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Looks like the problem is AEQ.
AEQ and the VA's and +%'s have been what have caused the most problem with the SIM and forced the most cookie cutter builds.
Training system is just a symptom, not the cause.
We really need to completely eliminate +% AEQ and VA's and turn them into flat bonuses that are more manageable/balanceable.
Same reason I pushed for the massive nerf to the +% attribute VA's. They became MUST HAVE not options and they screwed up the balance of the sim.
Getting rid of +% AEQ and VA's would be a huge boon for the game, despite the whining from the userbase who have been using it to 'exploit' its uber/imba/unbalanced nature.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
Restricting choices = cookie cutter, not the other way around.
Only about 1% of the GLB population knows how to effectively stack there VA and AE's. Vallhalla is not the norm.
Originally posted by Deathblade
Well, I guess I'll catch you up on the conversation.
Going for 4 AEQ is the superior option.
Whether or not the vast majority knows, or even you know...not getting 4 AEQ is just going to screw whoever doesn't get it in the long run.
And no, there's hardly any SP sacrifice while training. In fact, you can train intense for your first 6 seasons, then start training light, and have 4 pieces of AEQ by the season of your decline (7.5 AEQ upgrades per season).
Originally posted by Meatdawg
We had a system that allowed for 3 pieces of AEQ already. How many people did you see with 3 fully supported pieces? Not as many as you think.
You are projecting based on that fact the builder banks all BT, and doesn't cash in any for SP, doesn't upgrade any training levels, and doesn't buy the best +3 (5%) pieces...
Some people on this forum already have said they plan to build a different way. Id like to see your builds projected out vs a build that cashes in BT for sp with Multi training of minors. It is not as cut and dry as you make it.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
Lets just look at your last 5 season. (only training on light)
40 days regular season
8 post
8 pre
56 x 3 = 168
168 x 5 = 840 BT for those 5 seasons.
level 9 upgrades. (I wont even bother with level 10 level 72 upgrades)
9 x 24 = 216
Next lets do the cost of AE.
40 BT to make it +3, then we will go with 30 for a SA, % average.
216 + 70 = 286 per piece.
286 x 4 = 1144.
1144 - 840 = 304.
So if you factor in your whole career, with your 300 from your players first 6 seasons, and the 840 from his last 5 seasons, then yes, you would have enough for 4 pieces of AEQ upgraded to level 9.
To achieve this, you can never spend any BT on anything other then AEQ. Your build will suffer SP wise.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
The training levels needs to change.
No one I have spoken to can see taking an ability above level 3. The amount you have to invest is not worth the long term gain since the long term gain is 2-3 seasons max.
You need to either be able to recoup your BT invested in leveling attributes or the cost has to be cheaper.
I would fix it like this.
Create a "pool" that you dump BT into which you can then pull from to level attributes. When you are done with that attribute, you can return the BT to the pool. You can never take BT out of the pool however. This way, you can swap your BT around and use them to level attributes, while keeping the BT invested in the pool not allowing people to take them back and spend on other things like AEQ.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Could just slightly nerf equipment as a whole. Eliminate +3 attribute prefixes and make EQ upgrade slower. Instead of upgrading every 8 levels, make it 15.
A fully upgraded level 72+ would have somewhere in the range of +26 to +34. Much tighter and controlled than the range of +46 and +58. +% would indirectly be nerfed as well, since it'd be a lower %.
You'd be making 4 AEQ the norm while giving more bonus tokens (perhaps too many with me not doing the math) to play with in the other options (training enhancements, morale boosts, etc.). All the while decreasing the importance of EQ.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
^^^We'd burn in a fire by the masses for that, btw. Just stating the obvious.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
So does this seem like a pretty good plan?
-Create a player
-Relaxed train for 10 days and use those BTs to unlock the 3 other things you want to train
-Train 4 attributes on multi-train for his first 6 season, using BTs to upgrade higher levels and also to unlock new training combos
-Start training relaxed season 7 and work towards 4 pieces of advanced eq (especially since you can still train even once your player plateaus and begins his decline)
Originally posted by Meatdawg
You will not have enough BT for 4 pieces of AEQ if you follow this path.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Once someone makes a player builder script these options and choices that everyone have now will be all but gone. The nature of MMO players is that they will go for the best way, and any time math is involved there is always a "best way".
Any way you want to make the argument about training, the fact remains that the +3 from AEQ alone is worth 18-21 SP's to the build alone when applied to an attribute at the 6th or 7th cap. That is before you factor the suffix from the AEQ, which the SA upgraded to +6 is worth 12 SP's. Forget about the attribute bonuses from upgrading, because you can get that from standard EQ.
30-33 SP's is what AEQ with an SA is effectively worth. There isn't really a way to quantify the value of percentage pieces, because you can't get % boosts any other way. Now, you'll spend 340 bonus tokens to get a piece upgraded at level 72 (100 to buy the pieces, 240 to upgrade). If you round it off and say that AEQ is worth 34 SP's, which the percent pieces probably are, that makes the conversion rate of bonus tokens to SP's in AEQ 10/1.
If you were to make cost of swapping tokens for SP's equal 10 tokens for 1 SP rather than 12, that would go a very long way toward leveling the field for those that don't want to be pigeon holed into having four pieces of AEQ. Rather than nerf AEQ you buff the BT/SP exchange and they don't realize that you nerfed the advantage to having AEQ.
I still think that multi-training needs to yield more tokens, or have a normal and light version of multi training to make it more viable, but the above suggestion would go a long way toward eliminating the AEQ advantage.
Originally posted by Zickzack
I'd still be very much in favor to limit the maximum points that you can boost a single attribute via EQ, either at 25 or 40, as it would lead to more balanced (and dare I say "realistic" builds. If a similar effect can be achieved by something like you suggest that would not be too bad either. Not too happy with the 15 levels between EQ upgrades, if that frequency is supposed to be reduced then make it more spread out, as in "every 2 levels you can upgrade one piece of EQ/AEQ". The end effect is the same, but as minor as it might seem, players will be able to make a decision about their player every two levels. Could also be interesting as you will have to decide which of your three or four AEQs you iwll upgrade, rather than just upgrading them all when you are due after 15 levels.
Originally posted by Staz
Another idea - perhaps have EQ upgrades resemble the leveling "slow down" effect. Maybe instead of every 8 levels, go
Level 8-16-24-35-45-60-72?
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Food for thought.
56 training days x 8 seasons on normal = 896 bonus tokens
56 training days x 2 seasons on Light = 336 bonus tokens
Total 1232 Bonus tokens
You can damn near support 4 pieces just by doing that.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
That is defiantly more doable. However, you are still below anything we could have trained before since normal is still < then the old normal.
This was why I was projecting builds below SP wise what we could build before but the trade off was supposed to be 3 to 4 AEQ.
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=1453&page=1#24439
The most effective way I can see maintaining 4 AEQ is only going to 8 levels on pieces that produce SA's to get the +5, but take your % pieces as far as you can.
Originally posted by Catch22
I think the only thing this thread proves is the new training offers lots of different alternatives. I know I am taking some much different training paths with my players then what the current "recommended" paths being put out there are. I'm pretty sure my players will turn out just fine too.
As for the AEQ thing being OP - I guess time will tell. I think offsetting the training gains lost by going for AEQ will balance it out though but I could be wrong. If it turns out to be OP, we'll as always make adjustments as needed.
Originally posted by Rage Kinard
this has a huge upside and a huge downside
the upside is there are several "good" methods that won't be optimal. This means several people will create good players, but then see a player with a better build and decide "I need to start a new guy and try and match that build".
the downside is that there are going to be several mediocre and several bad methods that people will use. This can cause a large increase in the lack of parity in the leagues
Originally posted by tpaterniti
To rage, if you do indeed get normal intense BTs for multi training, then you can do this:
Season 1: 58 (-30 to unlock 3 multis - 20 to upgrade each one once) = 8 total
Season 2: 58 (-45 to unlock 2 more multis, -10 to upgrade each one) = 3 = 11 total
Season 3: 58 = 77 total
Season 4: 58 = 135 total
Season 5: 58 = 193 total
Season 6: 58 = 251 total
Season 7: 174 = 425 total
Season 8: 174 = 599 total
Season 9: 174 = 773 total
Season 10: 174 = 947 total
Season 11: 174 = 1121 total
It costs what, 216 BTs to upgrade a piece of advanced eq 9 times? That's 864 BTs for 4 pieces with 83 left over in 10 seasons, 257 left over in 11 seasons.
Originally posted by Meatdawg
You have to factor in the cost of the AEQ.
Its on average 70 BT per piece. So for 4, you need to account for another 280 tokens. You will be pretty close.
Originally posted by Zickzack
Actually you probably can get the first one or two a bit cheaper by going shopping for most positions, as you will still have a lot of options where to start towards your final goal. Will get harder once you have a piece or two, as normally valid options won't be valid anymore as you already have those.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Yeah, after some thought I also realized that multi-training 4 attributes in a season reduces your training to about 8 times - all the bonus you gain for multi-training you would lose in ALGs at low levels.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
So, now do you agree that multi training needs a BT buff?
Originally posted by tpaterniti
No, not really. I think it has it's use, which is probably in spots during a players 2nd-4th seasons, and probably then training only 2 or at most 3 attributes at a time. I don't think it is something anyone will use extensively regardless of BTs because it simply takes too long to do early in a player's career to be worth it (the loss of ALGs way outweighs any potential % bonus for the multi-train) and it yields too small of a benefit later in a player's career in proportion to the need for BTs. In other words, added BTs or not, no one smart will use it much regardless so if you want to add more BTs why not, but I think it is ultimately moot.
I am thinking about the training system and mulling it over so if I have new or different thoughts I will post them.
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Just to clarify, you don't think that normal training on single attributes is better than intense if we remove BTs from the equation do you? Apart from BTs intense training is always either best or tied for the best.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
It isn't even close if you take away the bonus tokens entirely, you're right. The bonus tokens is the thing that puts normal over the top in most cases, other times Light is greater, again because of bonus tokens. The value of bonus tokens is generally speaking greater than the value of training gains.
A strong case could be made that intense training should offer even greater training gains than it does currently, probably just 10% more, to offset the value of bonus tokens on Light and Normal training. As of right now, intense only really makes sense when an attribute is at 20 or less, and some would argue that it doesn't even make sense than.
I see three adjustments that could be made to balance up the build process.
1. Introduce Light and Normal multi training
2. Reduce the cost of converting BT's to SP's to 10/1 to reduce the advantage of AEQ. Converting to SP's would be about the same value as AEQ this way.
3. Increase training gains of intense training by about 10% over current to offset the lack of bonus tokens from that training method.
Do those three things and I really think the math gurus would have a hard time determining that any one thing is stronger than any other. Obviously Intense, Normal, and Light would have more or less value depending on what level an attribute is at, but all three methods would have their place, multi training would have it's place, and people would be less inclined to feel like 4 AEQ's should always be their goal. If multiple build avenues is our goal, as it should be, than balancing up the build methods would go a long way to that end.
Originally posted by Catch22
1 - not sure Bort would go for - was suggested when I put forth the initial plan and his response was "if you're training multiple attributes, you're training them intense, not light"
2- I agree with this, but what do others think?
3 - the one problem I have with this goes to #1 - right now all the multi training gains are based on intense - these gains are multiplicative and are pretty large. Add another 10% and you're talking even larger gains. Not sure where I stand on this one, I'd have to look at the math a bit closer.
Originally posted by jbleich
2- I agree with this, but what do others think?
I agree just for the fact that we need to try and find ways to at least entice people to not go the AEQ route...or at the very least make it easy to have 4 pieces.
Originally posted by Catch22
the problem with 2, however, is it makes training on intense even less of an option. We could only do 2 if we did 3.
Originally posted by Staz
1. I don't see why it's restricted. Do we know WHY he said this?
2. I didn't consider this, but it would have to be ran by the userbase to see what they thought. I still don't think that'll lessen the appeal of AEQ, since it seems to be such a "must have" nowadays.
3. Either raise the value of Intense or drop the value of Normal, I guess could work.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
The other option to make multi training better is to leave it on Intense training only, but increase the training boost from multi training itself. It would have to be a very significant boost, probably 50% more than it is now on 2, 3, and 4, to offset the bonus tokens with the other training methods, and I am not sure we would want to do that.
Multi training's fatal flaw is the fact that it divides the training by however many attributes you are training, and the fact that you need to spend BT's to do it. BT's that are in short supply on that training method. In terms of cap building, single intense is better because you hit your caps faster. It is very much the step child of the training system. Somehow or other multi training needs to be viable, and one way to do that is to make it have far and away the best pure training gains. That is the only other real option we have to fix it without mucking around with everything else.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Currently
Two Attributes: cost = 4 training points, receive 2 bonus tokens, +5% bonus to all attributes being trained
Three Attributes: cost = 6 training points, receive 3 bonus tokens, +20% bonus to all attributes being trained
Four Attributes: cost = 8 training points, receive 4 bonus tokens, +30% bonus to all attributes being trained
Proposed
Two Attributes: cost = 4 training points, receive 2 bonus tokens, +7.5%% bonus to all attributes being trained
Three Attributes: cost = 6 training points, receive 3 bonus tokens, +30% bonus to all attributes being trained
Four Attributes: cost = 8 training points, receive 4 bonus tokens, +45% bonus to all attributes being trained
This would also make enhanced training more viable because the percentages would stack more. Plus, if you add a multiplicative 10% increase to Intense in general it would make the training gains pretty huge in general. I'm still not sure it would make up the difference of the bonus tokens you'd have to pay out to do it, but it would balance it up some.
Originally posted by Catch22
What if it did this instead?
Currently:
Light 1 TP = 1.5BT
Normal 1 TP = 1 BT
Intense/Multiple 1 TP = .5 BT
Suggested:
Light 1 TP = 1.5 BT
Normal 1 TP = 1 BT
Intense 1 TP = .5BT, increase % gain by 10%
2 attributes 1 TP = .5BT (cost to unlock one attribute is only 5 BT and you get the additional 5% training gain)
3 attributes 1 TP = .667BT (for a total of 4 BT as opposed to 3)
4 attributes 1 TP = .75BT (for a total of 6 BT as opposed to 4)
Originally posted by Catch22
another thing I've thought about is the cost to enhance items is probably too low. Those prices were based upon creating an item from scratch, not upgrading an item bought from the AEQ store. I'm thinking if an item is purchased from the AEQ store it needs to be more expensive to enhance.
Originally posted by kurieg
Nah, I don't think so. Look at this way - someone paying 40 SPs to add +3 attribute to a piece with an SA/% bonus on it already is paying for 20 shopping trips. That's not ridiculous.
Seriously, just upgrade Intense training or the Multi-train bonus. Increased training gains really aren't a big deal imo - they scale up very nicely. They might pack a few more SPs into a build, but they aren't doing massive nasty things wrecking the sim.
Originally posted by jdros13
agree.
If you think AEQ is overpowered you should remove it. If you want AEQ in the game, then it should be something that is attainable by anyone if they work towards it. It's fun to create dots that actually work in the game and frustrating as hell to not be able to realize your vision due to dumb luck.
Originally posted by PP
I'd tend to agree with this [Kurieg's Post Above]. Ultimately, the real issue is that the gains from training on Multi and Intense aren't quite big enough to make them attractive options to many. Personally, I will do some multi training on most of my younger dots regardless, but the biggest issue I see most pointing is that you are better off with 4 pieces of AEQ. Bumping intense and mutli a bit would make that a tougher argument.
Originally posted by Catch22
so if we upped intense by 10% (which subsequently increases the multi's) would that be enough of an incentive or should we also adjust the BT values like I talked about earlier (still be gaining at a smaller rate then normal/light but at a higher rate then current)
Edited by tuba_samurai on Jun 1, 2010 13:57:45
Edited by tuba_samurai on May 27, 2010 23:13:09
