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tuba_samurai
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Thread started March 8th.

Summary: Catch opened a thread to discuss how to fix the pass game and coverage issues. Several testers give their opinions.

The thread is ongoing...
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Originally posted by Catch22
Discussion on things we can do to improve the pass game and coverage issues.

Especially the following:

- give the QB the ability to time routes/look off defenders
- deep balls being too easy to complete
- passes in double/triple coverage or blanketed man coverage, WR wins too often
- LB'ers acting stupidly in coverage against TE's/HB's


Originally posted by Deathblade
Fix for LB's acting stupidly is...allow LBs to read and play the pass quicker. There seems to be a minimum of at least 2 or 3 ticks where the LB plays the run regardless. By that time, the HB is about 3 yards from the sideline.

Alternatively, increase lateral movement while LBs are in the "follow the run" state, since it is really the left/right routes that [screw them up], not the up routes.




Originally posted by Enkidu98
- I definitely think the Zone Defenders need to have more bite on pump fakes etc. If a player is in a situation where Zone Defender is 'active' then they need to have a penalty to their roll vs pump fakes. Likewise, if the player is in Man Coverage, there needs to be a significant bonus to their ability to avoid pump fakes.

- RE: Deep balls being too easy to compete and double/triple coverage too easy to catch. I think the completion percentage is 'fine' when in single coverage.... The problem appears that double and triple coverage (or more) results in entirely too many completions. Perhaps instead of trying to fudge the sim and such to try to make coverage perfect a simple check for the number of defenders within a certain small radius of the intended receiver should add escalating penalties to the catch. 1 Defender = Standard Long Pass Penalty, 2 Defenders = Standard Long Pass Penalty +15%, 3 Pass Defenders = Standard Penalty +30%, 4 Pass Defenders = Standard Penalty + 60%. Passes into extreme coverage would still be possible but much less likely to be received. To be fair to offense though, QB should have better ability to determine potential coverage and avoid throwing these balls and likely be more likely to scramble for positive yards if they have no open targets.

- RE: Passing - Perhaps we need to look at deflections and increase the change to pass quality when a ball is deflected and also increase the angle that a ball goes 'off target' when it is deflected. One of the biggest complaints for DB's is how often a deflected ball is caught. Give weight to the ball going of target to either side of the intended receiver and down, with a small amount of chance it actually gets deflected upwards (and off to the sides) which may increase defense's opportunity to intercept.

- I agree with DB to some extent, but I think that LB's already have way more speed than they should due to people building for the Sim. Most all LB's have at least 100+ speed by the AAA's let alone the pros/WL. What about a Vision based 'pre-snap' read. Where we use the current system as the 'base' but before the snap LB's can have a chance to know the play is going to be a pass. And they only do one tick of the run attack (standard LB behavious is take a step forward while reading) and then they treat the play like a pass. This is based off of the sim knowing if it is a pass or not. If the LB makes the roll, they get a 'jump' on the play. If they fail the roll, they act like the do now. If its a run play and they fail the roll, they may hesitate in their read and so give up an extra yard or two. This may help actually with the other issue you asked about with the Running game.

Originally posted by Staz
We need to start with coverage mechanics, to be honest. I strongly feel that once we get THIS worked on, it's going to be MUCH easier to add the rest of the fixes needed, and we won't have to come back and do any "bandaid" solutions.

1. Before the snap, the defender is lined up in his spot, whether he's in man or zone. I'm takling about man first:
-In man, he's across from the receiver, distance determined by DC. Sometimes, you'll see a CB start to back off the line before the snap, or he'll step up and jam the receiver

2. The ball is snapped, the receiver begins to run his route. The DB will backpedal until he feels that the receiver is closing in on him, at which point he'll open up his hips. If the receiver is going towards the sidelines, he'll open his hips to the sidelines. If the receiver is inside of him, he'll open up his hips inside.

3. After opening his hips, the defender will then try to keep up with the receiver and attempt to stay on his inside hip. You'll often see a defender using his arm closest to the receiver to feel for him and keep track of him when he looks back to the QB. However, a man defender will generally focus on his receiver, and will only look back to the QB if the receiver seems to be looking for a pass (as if it's been thrown). He might sneak a peek occasionally, but he's susceptible to get beat if he does it often.

4. When the ball is thrown, and the receiver begins to focus on the pass, the defender will read the receivers actions, look for the ball while staying with his receiver. Generally, a defender will try to bat the pass down unless he's in good position to go for the interception
- If it's a deeper route, an aggressive corner might slow up a step or two and jump for the ball at it's "highest peak". The highest peak isn't always the BEST place, especially if it's a DEEP ball, but it's a general rule of thumb. Passing a vision check and 'knowing' your attributes (which should be in the game) should determine when you jump for the pass. Less aggressive corners will stick with their receiver and go for the swat.
-Intermediate routes will see an aggressive defender try and time his jump to cut in front of the receiver when the pass is closing in and try to catch it. Of course, if he fails to catch it, it usually results in an incomplete pass unless he some how tips it back to the receiver. Cutting in front of the receiver also messes with the receiver's concentration.
- On shorter routes, like hooks or come backs, an aggressive defender will attempt to jump in front of the receiver and snag the pass. Downside to this is that if he misses, the receiver is usually in a good position to turn upfield for extra yards, if he makes the catch.

Defender's in man coverage rarely will "swarm" to the ball when it's thrown to somebody else's receiver. I often see defenders covering their man until the whistle blows, or until they realize the ball has been caught by somebody else and will come over to make the tackle. This, however, is usually after the catch, and generally the defender's internal clock tells him that the play has gone on too long and he should be checking. Either that, or the receiver he's covering slows up, giving it away.

On zone coverage, I think we're doing pretty good. The defender shadows the receiver as he's entering the zone, and when he leaves his zone, the defender returns to his area.


Originally posted by Staz
Once the coverage mechanics get their fixes, it's probably time to focus on the Receiver/Defender interactions:

1. Bump and Run - I strongly feel that this is something that is needed. When we start pumping out Hard Hitting CBs, they won't have the natural speed gains to keep up with pure speedsters, nor should they. However, if a strong CB is against a fast, but weaker WR, he's going to get up on that line and bump him. Bump and run usually is the defender stepping up, jamming the receiver at the line and trying to get as much contact as he can within that 5yd area, to try and throw the receiver off his route, the QB off his timing, and basically throw a wrench in the play.

A receiver with solid strength, or exceptionally high agility can avoid the bump and run coverage by either shedding the defender, or faking the defender out and going around him. The latter can give the receiver some serious separation from the defender as the defender tries to recover and catch up. I think having SAs tied to this (Bump & Run, and Shed Defender) would help, too. That way, defenders aren't just "naturally" good at bump and run, but have to invest in it.

2. When a receiver runs a route, he is TOLD to run it "sharp". No "rounding" of the route, not cutting corners. The reason for this is that the sharp cuts in the route are what get separation more often than not. On an "In" route, for example, the receiver is supposed to run the designated distance upfield, and while losing as little speed as possible, plant his foot and make a 90 degree cut inside. The lower your agility, the more you slow down while trying this cut, or the more you round it off while trying to maintain your speed. The sharper the cut, and the faster you do it, the harder it will be for the defender to keep up with that cut, and the more separation you're going to get since the defender has to REACT.

Perhaps a tactic could be added for anybody able to run a route: Crisp - Round Off. The more towards crisp you go, the more you'll focus on making those sharp cuts. If you have high agility, this could help get separation. If you've got lower agility, you'll want to go more towards round off. The pros and cons? Crisp - Sharper cuts can create good separation against a defender, but you will lose speed getting into these cuts. Rounded - You maintain your speed, but you don't get as much separation from the cut, since it's easier to react to rounded off routes.

3. Through out the entire route, there is jostling, some incidental contact occuring, etc. that may or may not allow a receiver to get to FULL speed. This needs to be added.

4. When the ball is thrown, the receiver needs to locate the pass, the defender needs to realize the receiver is going for the ball, and the player(s) need to react. If a defender is playing the ball, he'll go for it. If he's playing the receiver, he may get right up against the receiver and attempt to swat the pass. A receiver can lose his focus on the ball if:
- The defender cuts in front of him (needs to pass a vision check to see the pass again)
- The ball is tipped (needs vision check to see the pass again, and then needs to go after it)
- Other things that aren't really a concern (losing footing, for example)

5. When there are multiple defenders in the area, it's very unlikely the receiver will come away with the pass. The chances the ball should be tipped with 2+ defenders in the area should be extremely high, unless the receiver has separation from the defenders. Also, in double coverage, one defender should play underneath while the other should play over the top in a more "soft" coverage.


Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Concerning QBs, they really need to have some roll-based 'how hard do I throw it' or rather 'how high do I need to throw this' for different routes/situations. I'm not sure how that could be coded, but things are still 'one size fits all'.
Originally posted by Staz
I agree with this, too. If a receiver is running a streak, you want to give it some air and let him run under it. If he's about to hit the gap in a zone, you want to laser that sucker in there. If he's on a hook, you want to put some zip on it before the defender get's there, etc.
QB vision and confidence (vision, mainly) needs to help locate defenders, where they're heading, the type of coverage they're in, the type of throw that needs to be made, and predicting where the receiver will be and throwing it to the right spot.



Originally posted by Staz
Once we get the previous two things worked on (coverage mechanics, receiver/defender interaction) we can start working on QB/Receiver timing:

http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/wp/wordpress/?p=134 - This might be something interesting

I'm putting together the routes, and when they should be hit. It might take me a minute.


In response to passes into double and triple coverage:

Originally posted by Kirghiz
I would much, much rather see the QB not even make this throw, and when he does attempt it, which should be rare unless he has 12 vision, have it never be completed.
Originally posted by Catch22
Agree completely. Threat level should force the QB to say "do not throw" - this would be easily coded too I think.
Originally posted by Bort
It's usually when he's hurried, though, or the play has gone on forever with no open targets. It's hardly ever when he has no pressure. Sometimes the triple coverage is not there when the throw is made, too. Often times it's zone guys flying in.

Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Can there be some sort of check to just 'eat' a sack when hurried? Like as opposed to throwing in triple coverage when pressured, because imo that happens all too often. Or have it as a slider (but unify it with throw away risk).

Originally posted by Staz
Definitely needed. Smart QBs will just take the sack as opposed to throw it into multiple coverages. Either that, or they'll throw it away (across the LOS, out of bounds, towards the general area of a receiver).


Originally posted by Bort
Timing hit points on routes would actually be very useful. Some plays use them, but not all. Going through and updating them all to include them would probably improve things there there.
Originally posted by Staz
I think many plays SHOULD. Routes like Curls, Slants and double move routes like Post Corners all need timing. Too often, I see a WR hit a curl or hook route, and stand there for a few seconds before the QB throws it to him. By then, the defender has recovered and is in perfect position to jump the route.
Most routes need the QB to start his throwing motion right before the WR hits his break (Curls, Hooks), as the receiver is hitting his break (Slants, Corners, Post Corners on the 2nd break) or just as he's coming out of his break (Posts, Outs, Ins, etc.)



Originally posted by Enkidu98
One thing... Really need to look at the bias for the longer passes. I see numerous occasions where a FB is a wide open passing target but the QB looks to the next receiver in their progression. There seems to still be entierly too much bias for the pass moving the chains and not enough bias on going to an open guy who will move the chains with the run after the pass.
[Removed wrong link- Tuba]
QB's need to really give more preference to guys who are 'short' and lack coverage.


Originally posted by kurieg
About the fakes - I agree QB fakes should be more effective against Zone, but WR fakes should be more effective against man. Should have always been like that imo.
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Juke needs to be more effective for getting receivers open as well. A few seasons ago when a big deal was made about Juke triggering before the pass I went and loaded up a WR with 11 Juke, +Fake AEQ, and close to 90 agility and 70 vision. I don't think I have ever seen him blink a man in coverage, even in blowouts. He should blink someone I would think.
Originally posted by kurieg
When you don't have the ball, faking a cover guy never seems to blink him. I think it's not coded in to the display to show the dot blink when he's faked while covering a receiver pre-reception.
I *believe* that fakes by the WR do occassionally affect cover guys, but I don't think it happens often, and I think it should be stronger against Man. It's primarily WR fakes, explosiveness, and timing that beat man coverage 1v1, not pump fakes.

Originally posted by Mat McBriar
High juke WRs most definitely do work and work very efficiently in terms of faking while running their route. The faked defender mimics that of a pump fake.




Originally posted by Mat McBriar
I mentioned this early on a team forum, but it's really bizarre when some bad passes look better than the normal because the QB ends up throwing it more into space with the receiver 'going to get it'.
I think Bort amped up some effects of that liking last offseason, but it really could come up some more. Sort of a simultaneous change to have QBs adjusting their throws into space away from defenders/safeties more while having WRs utilizing their vision, etc. to make adjustments to their route (likewise QB vision/confidence/etc. factoring into knowing how far away he can throw from his target). Obviously it being ok if the receiver and QB don't sync up.


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Thoughts on Chocolate Blaze/Valhalla Game and Pass Interactions
Originally posted by kalkmanc
Just want to get the general thought on this since I saw it happen consistently in the Val/CB game.

Yes, I have a player on Val and i realize all these replays are of it happening against Val, but that is besides the point. I'm sure it happens a lot more than this. I just happened to pay closer attention to this game because it was such a great game.

Basically, here http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1099629&pbp_id=19474440 the LB gets distracted/cut off and ends up impeding his path to the TE. On the same play, the CB who ends up covering the HB tries to cover the TE for a split second

and then a ton from this shotgun smash play, the CB is getting cut off by the TE every time

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1099629&pbp_id=19475515
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1099629&pbp_id=19475972 this one it doesn't even seem like he is getting cut off..it seems as though the CB tries covering the TE for a second because he moves backwards with him
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1099629&pbp_id=19478196
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1099629&pbp_id=19478315


Good gameplanning on thinking of routes that will create this interaction with that D alignment or is something buggy?


Originally posted by w_alloy
I'm aware the Bort intentionally added this, and I think it is perfectly ok for it to happen sometimes. But the problem I have with it is the consistency with which it happens on certain plays.

First off, "picks" are illegal in football. While teams will definitely run some routes that cross each other irl to get some of this effect, the way it unfolds in GLB would often be flagged as a penalty.

Further, these situations could often be avoided with a simple sidestep by the player. I think having collisions happen to this degree is a bit unfair when players cannot move out of the way of each other.

While it can usually be avoided with a small change in the defensive play (or often times even a personnel change), this can be pretty much unforeseeable in certain situations. The number of plays in the playbook and the differences in the way that certain players can run routes can make this very tough to predict.

Again, I don't have a problem with this happening sometimes. But it shouldn't happen every single time a certain play is called without fail. Sorry if this post comes off a little rant-ish, I don't mean it that way. I've definitely taken advantage of this as an OC in certain situations.


Originally posted by PP
The thoughts that struck me while watching that game was A) OMG, what a thrilling game, but at the same time B) outside of the score and the ending, OMG, what a boring game...drop baclk, pass, complete (almost regardless or the coverage) and repeat, and C)WOW, is it ever possible to make WRs that beat the holy shit out of CBs. Many of the passes completed were into p damn tight trips coverage.

About the best way I can explain it was that it was thrilling and a little depressing at the same time. I'm thrilled that Val won and that it was such an incredible game, but I'd hate to run an O where I knew my best chance of success was just throw on almost every down, despite having an OUTSTANDING OL and stable of HBs.


Originally posted by Catch22
so I hate to ask this but I will - what exactly is it that makes the WR's so powerful. My guess is it's these two things.

1) AEQ stacking (+% catch I'm sure as well as +% pass quality for the QB)
2) VA's - if so, which VA's (and yea, I could look but I'd rather not post that without permission)


Originally posted by Mat McBriar
In simplest it comes down to +% PQ and +% Catch ball. Certainly stacked AEQ plays a big part into that (I've seen plenty of players with +50% or more lately), but especially for QBs the SAs and VAs just amplify things further. Clock Manager, Hail Mary, and Mentor come to mind.

If I had to say what needed adjusting, probably a minor tweak to Clock Manager and a lengthening of the distance req'd for Hail Mary. Also, fwiw if the pass quality roll is playing heavily into these catches in double/triple/quadruple coverage that needs to be adjusted. There needs to be a definite position where you can no longer 'squeeze' in a pass no matter how well you throw it. There comes a time when things need to be auto-deflections.

I believe we had this discussion sometime ago, but the CBs should be making less jumps (harder vision check) in front of the WR, and when he does, it should be a deflection or INT minus a small 'fail' window (like 2-3% of the time where it just goes through his hands or something silly).


Originally posted by w_alloy
Only one of Val's WRs have stacked pass completion gear, which honestly I probably should have pushed to change more. [Edit] is not the one with stacked AEQ. All the other receivers and TE have one piece of catch ball % gear.

[Edit2] has 3 pieces of pass quality gear, although one is only a base 2 agi +5% PQ upgraded to level 5 (40 tokens) I added this season. I know [Edit3] has over 55% pass quality as well. I think the stacked pass qualities' importance in this game cannot be overstated, especially on a build like [Edit2]: with mentor and other VAs (no streaky) he played with 241 throwing+vis and 118 confidence, with 10+ in the four major SAs. I think the answer is more the QBs than the WRs, and it won't be as bad next season with it being much harder to stack AEQ.

I didn't use Clock Manager but I think it could probably use a nerf (I would have very much liked to use it). I think that Hail Mary could use a nerf as well As far as WR VAs go, nothing sticks out to me... perhaps Mr. Reliable is a bit strong. But Valhalla didn't have much of either Mr. Reliable or Hail Mary (lol 100+ post thread) last season.

I also think that it should be harder to throw into double coverage (should be a % modifier to the PD roll imo) and it should be harder to double cover. One of the problems with this last point is the running game... it was a little bit ridiculous how much both teams cheated pass defense in this game. That should have been a bigger factor than it was. I also agree that jumping a route should be harder but yield success more often.

Lastly, more of the variability in completions should be variability in CBs covering the WR's routes, not having everything based on the PD roll. Right now either you can cover a WR, or you can't. If a WR is going to get beat a CB with speed and agility on a route one time, he is usually going to get beat him on that route very consistently. The middle ground is too small. I think there should be a little more variability in how the CBs react to a given WR running a specific route. Like delaying reactions by fractions of tics and subtle positioning mistakes. I think this should be coupled with a slight decrease to the radius within which a CB can make a play on the ball and an increase in the chance to win the PD roll. Or maybe just have the PD roll based more on positioning than it is now, with a bigger bonus when the CB reads the play well and is waiting at a spot for the ball.

Originally posted by Staz
I see a lot of people here focusing just on % AEQ, and "rolls", but I still feel very strongly that the #1 thing that needs to be fixed is the mechanics. The way the defenders cover the receivers, the way the receivers and defenders interact, and then the way receivers and QBs interact (timing)

Originally posted by PP
one thing to keep in mind in all of this, though, is that we are talking about the 2 best passing teams in the entire game. For what it's worth, I believe it does have more to do with the QBs' stacking pass quality than anything else, but that other VAs that both the QBs and WRs use help shove it to the point where a D is actually helpless against either team.

HOWEVER, take out just 3-5 teams in the game and the passing game is pretty damn balanced. Just as many teams can't pass to save their soul as those that can pass well. On this issue, I think the only solutions are to address stacking (one of the bigger issues the game has, IMO) and make some major changes to WR/DB interactions.

w_a is correct. there isn't enough randomness to their interactions. A particular CB build will absolutely shut down a particular WRing build 95 times out of 100. That extremely rare WR that can get open will repeatedly. Also completely agree with him on CBs winning more in good single, double and trips coverage, but you better make those WRs get open more or it kills the pass game. I'm going to take a page out of Starz's book here and agree that more realistic interactions need to occur before we can really start fine tuning this

Originally posted by tautology

The above is a longish post, so I will summarize:

1) Pass Quality % gear and mentor stacking make certain QBs almost impossible to deflect or defend. The current changes *may* fix that.

2) Certain WR builds on certain routes are virtually uncoverable.

These are the things that lead to the unstoppable offense effect.

That being said....please read w_alloy's post. It is 100% on target.


Originally posted by Staz
I feel very strongly about this. We can't go around messing with all the extra stuff before we get the foundation hammered out and perfected. We need to start from the ground up, from the most basic of the basics, the fundamentals. Then, once we get those ironed out, we start to expand our focus to tactics, SA/VAs, AEQ, etc. I've got an abundance of ideas about things to improve the passing game (on both sides), but I feel we need to get the very basics down before any of it will be effective.

Originally posted by Catch22
a lot easier said then done when it comes to starting from the ground up. I think you actually have to start from the ceiling and work your way down. I'm not sure Bort will be able to completely rewrite code for a sim interaction at this point, so we need to look at what is working and isn't working and go from there.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Here's the problem I see with passing that I don't know if it can be fixed or not.

QBs check to see if a man "is" open now. When they should be trying to read "will he be open when the ball gets to him".

A QBs decision to throw or not should include

1. Does he recognize the defense correctly (man/zone/ or man with extra zone defenders)
2. If player is being covered by man is he moving faster than person covering him
a. If so how much seperation is there
b. Is WR going to make a cut
c. Will the cut take him away from the defender
d. Is there zone help in the area
e. will designed route take him toward or away from the zone defender
f. can I get him the ball before the zone defender comes into play
g. do I think he can make the catch in tight coverage if he isn't open

3. If defense is a zone, the QB needs to try and find the holes in the zone. IRL this is done pre-snap. It may need to be part of the drop back decision making. The code needs to have the QB try and throw the ball before the receiver hits the hole in the zone, not while he is in it. So decision making should be more
a. How fast is the WR traveling
b. Where is the next hole that he will get to
c. Can I get the ball there as he hits the hole in the zone


Now, the thing is, QBs should make mistakes. They shouldn't always calculate things correctly, and they should fail to see some defenders in zone coverage. For example a LB may be lined up close to LOS, but the defensive AI calls for him to drop back in zone coverage. Sometimes, the QB needs to expect the LB is blitzing and make a throw into that LBs zone thinking it will be open.

Originally posted by Sik Wit It
A very good look at what needs to go into QB reads before we can see a realistic passing game. The ability for the QB to recognize when a WR is breaking into space is the most needed part of the passing mechanics. As it is now, it just seems like he only takes into account the proximity of defenders when determining if the target is "open" rather than looking at direction and speed the defender is traveling in relation to the WR. Not to totally take a crap on Bort's code or anything, but if it DOES currently take those into account, then it needs to definitely be fine-tuned, because it's not a very accurate portrayal of a football passing game at the present.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
My concern is that if an overhaul is going to be made to the passing game will be a multi-season endeavor and you will either have to:

1. get the SIM to a point where you are willing to wait until the overhaul is completely done before bringing changes to the test server over to the live server
or
2. Having a "development" server where you work on the overhaul to the passing game separately from the test server. This would also have to be limited to Hazy and either the lead testers, or a development team that is separate from the testers.

Basically you would be looking at it as creating GLB v 2.0.

Originally posted by Catch22
This. I'd rather not just "patch" the passing game interactions and continuously change them. I'd rather Bort take his time and spend however long it takes to get it working right and THEN we test it and move it live. Part of the problem we have is that the above (patching portions of the code rather than revamping all of it) is the norm.

Originally posted by Catch22
yea tbh, I'd rather keep the sim changes minimal this off season. There are enough other changes being pushed. Obviously want to fix broken stuff, but the major overhauls (like reworking passing interactions) I'd much rather we take our time and do it right.

Originally posted by Staz
Agreed. I don't see anything minor that needs tweaking. What I do see, though, are big projects:

1. Passing Game as a Whole (Coverage/Interactions/Timing/QB Reads)
2. Blocking Logic (Reads/Adjustments/Assignments)
3. Defensive Interactions (Reads/Reactions/Pathing/DPC Changes & Updates)
4. Ball Carrier Issues (How SAs Fire/Setting Up Blocks/"Patience")

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Ongoing...

Edited by tuba_samurai on Mar 18, 2010 21:05:43
 
Dpride59
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- passes in double/triple coverage or blanketed man coverage, WR wins too often



Wrs wins because of the stacked va's aeq/ and better builds.

Clock manager needs to be flat out removed. A qb who can have 75% boost to pass quality, and a wr with 75% catch ball when trailing by 1 pt or more for essentially 7:30 of the half/game makes glb a game of whoever gets the ball last wins.

75% boost to pass quality and catch ball is the equivalent of slapping 100 throw 50 vision 50 str on every qb, and insane amounts of jump catch on a wr... Remove these and those double triple coverage passes will be non existent.

With the nerfs to aeq coming, that is going to hit qb's wr's much much harder than anyone on the defense, so I would be very hesitant to adjust anything with the qb/wr dynamic.
Edited by David Stern on Mar 14, 2010 23:19:37
 
Time Trial
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If they do improve the ability to defend passes, Bort needs to look at making the low-level passing fix that went in last season not drop off so badly.

The fixes work great at level 1, but by the time you hit level 8 you are completing about half the passes you were at level 1.

So at level one a QB can make a pass like this:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064986&pbp_id=4107650
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064986&pbp_id=4107750
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064986&pbp_id=4112003

And at level 10 a QB can make a pass like this:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064862&pbp_id=16523130

And don't get me started about how you need to trick your dots into making bad plays in order to make them make good plays.

On defense you need to line your dots up deep in coverage so that they will run towards the line of scrimmage, only to realize that the dots that they are covering are running away from the line of scrimmage, causing your dots to turn around and actually cover the WR closely. If you don't do that, they stay in front of the WR by such a wide margin that any pass might as well be to a wide open receiver that isn't covered.

Watch the CB. He's lined up deep, runs at the WR, then he is at least in position to make a play on the pass:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064859&pbp_id=15661806
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064859&pbp_id=15665161

Here is what it looks like when you don't trick your dot into actually covering the WR:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064859&pbp_id=15665324
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064835&pbp_id=17409846
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1064835&pbp_id=17410095 - Look how open the cutback is.

 
Enkidu98
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I agree with you there. Clock Manager is entirely too powerful. I am not sure aout its complete removal. Certainly scaling back would be good, but also something that help is preventing the QB from throwing into those situations to begin with. Likely we need a combination of fixes because the concept of a clock manager VA is a good one.

But as it stands now I am in complete agreement. Clock Manager is entirely too powerful and can be combined with too many things from a team to ensure that if you have the ball last, and you are behind by less than 6 points you can pretty much be assured to take the game if there is a minute or two left on the clock.
 
Longhornfan1024
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Originally posted by Enkidu98
I agree with you there. Clock Manager is entirely too powerful. I am not sure aout its complete removal. Certainly scaling back would be good, but also something that help is preventing the QB from throwing into those situations to begin with. Likely we need a combination of fixes because the concept of a clock manager VA is a good one.

But as it stands now I am in complete agreement. Clock Manager is entirely too powerful and can be combined with too many things from a team to ensure that if you have the ball last, and you are behind by less than 6 points you can pretty much be assured to take the game if there is a minute or two left on the clock.


Change clock manager to a boost to confidence under the same conditions. If what we are going for is the Colt McCoy type of QB who seems to thrive when down by a few points with the game on the line, then confidence seems the most appropriate stat to boost.
 
mbinger
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could also see a boost to vision, in that they think better under pressure. Game slows down for them in these situations and whatnot.
 
Enkidu98
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Increased confidence and Vision seems like a really fair sort of boost in those situations. Maybe an aditional boost to 'quick release' as well? Or perhaps new SA's that will likely be a part of the new Archetypes... Like something that allows them to read their receivers faster?
 
ijg
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If reason throws are made into triple coverage is really cause everyone else was covered earlier in progression than how about having qb count defenders as he progresses so he knows that if single coverage is tight it's still a better target than triple coverage on next read

Example: D in 3-3-5. Qb counts 3 dl, ball snapped and 1 lb blitzes, so he counts him for 4 = 7 in coverage.

Next, 1st read is hb covered by lb = 6 left in coverage, next is wr1 who is double teamed = 4 left, next read te single covered but not open = 3 defenders left. Now, I know my only other target is wr2 who must be triple teamed so I make the throw to te or go back to an earlier read for a 2nd look instead of progressing to triple covered wr2 and forcing throw.

Problem solved?
 
HEY YOU GUYS
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Yeah I think the AEQ nerf is going to stop a lot of those triple coverage completions
 
Black Peter
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How about doing something to fix the issue of coverage being picked off by their own team-mates and also the illegal picks on coverage by offensive dots. It's especially irritating when at the same time offensive dots can just appear to waltz right through each other without a hitch, slow-down or even breaking stride at all.
 
TrevJo
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Originally posted by ijg
If reason throws are made into triple coverage is really cause everyone else was covered earlier in progression than how about having qb count defenders as he progresses so he knows that if single coverage is tight it's still a better target than triple coverage on next read

Example: D in 3-3-5. Qb counts 3 dl, ball snapped and 1 lb blitzes, so he counts him for 4 = 7 in coverage.

Next, 1st read is hb covered by lb = 6 left in coverage, next is wr1 who is double teamed = 4 left, next read te single covered but not open = 3 defenders left. Now, I know my only other target is wr2 who must be triple teamed so I make the throw to te or go back to an earlier read for a 2nd look instead of progressing to triple covered wr2 and forcing throw.

Problem solved?


I'm not sure if that's quite the right method, but I do think high-vision QBs should be able to know how many rushers and coverage guys there are and adjust his risk factor (and possibly progressions) accordingly.
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by Toriq
How about doing something to fix the issue of coverage being picked off by their own team-mates and also the illegal picks on coverage by offensive dots. It's especially irritating when at the same time offensive dots can just appear to waltz right through each other without a hitch, slow-down or even breaking stride at all.


This does annoy me as well. I could see the penalty being 'less' for the offense as on crossing routes etc they practice trying to cause coverage issues with pattern convergence etc so they 'know' the interseciton is coming and avoid it better, but it should still cause slowing for the offense.

I think its a bit bull crappy that pursuit path for the defense has to be recalculated as well to avoid their teammates while the same does not appear to occur for offense.
 
tuba_samurai
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**Updated the OP with additional Test Server Quotes**

Of note is a bit of talk about the Blaze/Valhalla Game and the passing interactions that went on.
 
Triple_A
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I have an suggestion about improving the passing game. ( I have been an Ast' coach in a Atom league for 6 years). Been with GLB since season seven.
Anyways, I believe most teams are using man to man coverage with 0-1 yard Man Coverage Cushion. This means, which it should that the pass defense is behind or chasing the receiver in balls thrown 10+ yds. This increases PD's and sim wise probably the line of sight increasing bad throws and incomplete passes.
Zone coverage (which I believe is not used often) relies on watching and waiting for the receiver to enter your zone before coverage begins, passing plays only. This is where you get REC's and rely on YAC or just get plain beat. A disadvantage to this is that their should be more INT's from the reads.
Sorry, not trying to explain the difference in coverage to you all. It just seems that the majority of pass defenses use man to man because it works sim wise, especially when you double or triple team.
 
Staz
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Originally posted by Triple_A
I have an suggestion about improving the passing game. ( I have been an Ast' coach in a Atom league for 6 years). Been with GLB since season seven.
Anyways, I believe most teams are using man to man coverage with 0-1 yard Man Coverage Cushion. This means, which it should that the pass defense is behind or chasing the receiver in balls thrown 10+ yds. This increases PD's and sim wise probably the line of sight increasing bad throws and incomplete passes.
Zone coverage (which I believe is not used often) relies on watching and waiting for the receiver to enter your zone before coverage begins, passing plays only. This is where you get REC's and rely on YAC or just get plain beat. A disadvantage to this is that their should be more INT's from the reads.
Sorry, not trying to explain the difference in coverage to you all. It just seems that the majority of pass defenses use man to man because it works sim wise, especially when you double or triple team.


I'm not understanding the suggestion.
 
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