Thread Started on the Test Server March 8th.
Summary: Catch is currently testing SA's and is asking the opinions of testers as to what is over/under-powered in SA's and VA's.
The Discussion is On-Going.
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Originally posted by Catch22
I just finished testing the new SA's for balance (they all looked pretty good, ran over 50 test games) and am about to get started testing SA's/VA's using equivalent players (no differences in builds at positions). I want to get your opinions on which VA's and SA's I should be looking at closely as far as being over powered or under powered.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Mentor = Overpowered
I'll have to think about this one and get back to you more.
Originally posted by Deathblade
It's a pretty widespread belief that mentor actually doesn't even work...so I lol'd a bit.
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Originally posted by tpaterniti
Hard Count
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Hard Count is fine. IMO. I like that it works and it is noticable but it also has a counter. D-line with 64+ Vision.
The only thing I might do with Hard count is modify it so that it has two forms in one. Once you force a team to jump offsides X number of times, it then turns into a deal for the D-line to get off the snap, like a reverse 'jump the snap'.
EG, instead of triggering throughout the game and causing lots of encroachments, it triggers like 3 encroachments and then each time it 'triggers' after that adds a negative modifier to the Defenses ability to get moving once the ball is snapped to simulate them being extra careful and avoiding the DC chewing their asses for stupid penalties.
Originally posted by jdros13
I think Hard Count is ridiculous. If it is going to stay, there should be the possibility of it causing false starts as well. Personally I'd prefer that we not have any VA's that cause penalties.
Originally posted by Staz
It does reflect a real "ability", though.
Originally posted by jdros13
which is fine, but there is no down side. I haven't seen it determine any games yet that I've been involved with, but I've seen teams get over 50 free yards out of it. Personally I think the penalties should go away altogether, but since I'm sure they won't I'd rather just see the offense have a chance to be hurt by this VA.
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Originally posted by Mat McBriar
SAs that are probably too weak:
{NOTE- Removed Generic Descriptions. Tuba}
Strong Arm (Guard/Center/FB)
Shock Block (Guard, Offensive Tackle, Center)
Route Running (Wide Receiver, Tight End)
Jumping Catch (Wide Receiver)
Diving Catch (Wide Receiver)
One Handed Catch (Wide Receiver)
Turn the Shoulder (Quarterback)
Snarl (Defensive Tackle, Linebacker)
The Glare (Defensive Tackle, Linebacker)
Trash Talk (Linebacker)
Blitz (Cornerback)
Growl (Free Safety, Strong Safety)
.
Originally posted by tautology
Of these, I think Blitz and Route Run are probably fine (especially Route Run).
The rest are a little weak, especially one-handed catch which seems to have too few opportunities to fire for the points required to make it work.
I would throw Absorb Pain into the list of sub-par SAs as well.
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Originally posted by Mat McBriar
For the overpowered (feeling lazy to do a legit list):
1. First Step
2. Protector
3. Shutdown Coverage
Originally posted by Koncorde
Is First Step truly overpowered?
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Idk about you, but I find insta-max acceleration due to First Step pretty ridiculous. Players go from stop to their top speed (or relatively close to it) almost immediately.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Yeah, I think the speed/acceleration curve in the game as a whole is a bit messed up. I'm not sure that first step is overpowered though.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
If you look at players w/o First Step, the speed/acceleration curve really isn't all that messed up. It's still a bit extreme, but especially on heavier players it's ok. If you look at some replays of my 125.5 speed/78.5 agility TE with 0 First Step it isn't all that bad. If we could take that acceleration and match it to 180 pound WRs, I think we'd be in the right place.
First Step would still need a nerf, although it'd really hurt the pass rush (unless we could somehow keep the First Step effect off the snap for linemen the same).
Originally posted by Enkidu98
I was just going to say. Any change to first step would need to accommodate the D-Line/Line....
Maybe first step should give you instantaneous acceleration to your top speed for a set number of tics and your normal speed acceleration curve is also kept track of and after x number of ticks you drop to your normal speed per the acceleration curve?
Originally posted by Staz
I don't think you should EVER be able to get to top speed in less than 20 yards.
I think FS should simply cause the acceleration "curve" to be steeper for 2-4 ticks, and then go right back to the normal curve. You won't lose any speed, and FS will be helpful, but much more realistic.
I'm going to use numbers, since idk how to paint it any other way:
Normal Accel Curve (each number is on it's own tick): 1, 1.5, 2, 2.75, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.75, 7.75, 8.75, 10, 10.75, 11.75--
First Step Maxed: 1, 2, 3, 4, - Starts normal curve and continues from there.
I don't think that's the greatest example, but you can see sort of what I'm talking about. Just increase the rate of acceleration for 2-4 ticks, and then go back to the normal values.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
That would do huge damage to the line. Since a tic is a fraction of a second, I figure it represents your explosiveness. Its like a good start off the blocks. where the initial jump is very high, then retreats. I think our aim is the same thing, but for it to work for the D-Line etc, they'll need max speed with a quick drop off.
WR's, HB's etc may need to be treated differently.
First Step Is discussed more with the testing staff seemingly split on whether or not it is overpowered at all, whether it is overpowered for some, and just what positions it would need to be nerfed for, especially the need to not nerf it for D-Linemen.
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Originally posted by Kirghiz
Aura Of Intimidation
Field General
Line General
Defense General
One Handed Catch
Demoralize - This SA should absolutely not be active on designed QB run plays, and it isn't, but limiting it to only scrambles for yards kind of negates it's value. It should also trigger on any completed pass in which the QB threw it from outside the tackle box.
In response to Demoralize...
Originally posted by Bort
"After any QB rush or pass from outside the pocket, the defense will lose additional morale."
_________________
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Short Yardage Monster is too powerful. Maybe restrict the effect to runs inside the tackles or something.
I know the AEQ stacking will bring it down a bit, but it still will need more of a nerf.
Originally posted by tautology
On the VA front, Punishing Runner and Adrenaline Junkie seem inherently weak...unless their effects are actually activated on Missed tackles as well as tackles. If that is the case then they might be worthwhile at least on the surface.
Originally posted by Staz
Agree. I'm not a fan of these "% chance for this thing to even work" SAs
____________________________________
Ongoing.....
Summary: Catch is currently testing SA's and is asking the opinions of testers as to what is over/under-powered in SA's and VA's.
The Discussion is On-Going.
******************************************************************
Originally posted by Catch22
I just finished testing the new SA's for balance (they all looked pretty good, ran over 50 test games) and am about to get started testing SA's/VA's using equivalent players (no differences in builds at positions). I want to get your opinions on which VA's and SA's I should be looking at closely as far as being over powered or under powered.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Mentor = Overpowered
I'll have to think about this one and get back to you more.
Originally posted by Deathblade
It's a pretty widespread belief that mentor actually doesn't even work...so I lol'd a bit.
_____________________________________
Originally posted by tpaterniti
Hard Count
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Hard Count is fine. IMO. I like that it works and it is noticable but it also has a counter. D-line with 64+ Vision.
The only thing I might do with Hard count is modify it so that it has two forms in one. Once you force a team to jump offsides X number of times, it then turns into a deal for the D-line to get off the snap, like a reverse 'jump the snap'.
EG, instead of triggering throughout the game and causing lots of encroachments, it triggers like 3 encroachments and then each time it 'triggers' after that adds a negative modifier to the Defenses ability to get moving once the ball is snapped to simulate them being extra careful and avoiding the DC chewing their asses for stupid penalties.
Originally posted by jdros13
I think Hard Count is ridiculous. If it is going to stay, there should be the possibility of it causing false starts as well. Personally I'd prefer that we not have any VA's that cause penalties.
Originally posted by Staz
It does reflect a real "ability", though.
Originally posted by jdros13
which is fine, but there is no down side. I haven't seen it determine any games yet that I've been involved with, but I've seen teams get over 50 free yards out of it. Personally I think the penalties should go away altogether, but since I'm sure they won't I'd rather just see the offense have a chance to be hurt by this VA.
________________________________
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
SAs that are probably too weak:
{NOTE- Removed Generic Descriptions. Tuba}
Strong Arm (Guard/Center/FB)
Shock Block (Guard, Offensive Tackle, Center)
Route Running (Wide Receiver, Tight End)
Jumping Catch (Wide Receiver)
Diving Catch (Wide Receiver)
One Handed Catch (Wide Receiver)
Turn the Shoulder (Quarterback)
Snarl (Defensive Tackle, Linebacker)
The Glare (Defensive Tackle, Linebacker)
Trash Talk (Linebacker)
Blitz (Cornerback)
Growl (Free Safety, Strong Safety)
.
Originally posted by tautology
Of these, I think Blitz and Route Run are probably fine (especially Route Run).
The rest are a little weak, especially one-handed catch which seems to have too few opportunities to fire for the points required to make it work.
I would throw Absorb Pain into the list of sub-par SAs as well.
____________________________________
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
For the overpowered (feeling lazy to do a legit list):
1. First Step
2. Protector
3. Shutdown Coverage
Originally posted by Koncorde
Is First Step truly overpowered?
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Idk about you, but I find insta-max acceleration due to First Step pretty ridiculous. Players go from stop to their top speed (or relatively close to it) almost immediately.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
Yeah, I think the speed/acceleration curve in the game as a whole is a bit messed up. I'm not sure that first step is overpowered though.
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
If you look at players w/o First Step, the speed/acceleration curve really isn't all that messed up. It's still a bit extreme, but especially on heavier players it's ok. If you look at some replays of my 125.5 speed/78.5 agility TE with 0 First Step it isn't all that bad. If we could take that acceleration and match it to 180 pound WRs, I think we'd be in the right place.
First Step would still need a nerf, although it'd really hurt the pass rush (unless we could somehow keep the First Step effect off the snap for linemen the same).
Originally posted by Enkidu98
I was just going to say. Any change to first step would need to accommodate the D-Line/Line....
Maybe first step should give you instantaneous acceleration to your top speed for a set number of tics and your normal speed acceleration curve is also kept track of and after x number of ticks you drop to your normal speed per the acceleration curve?
Originally posted by Staz
I don't think you should EVER be able to get to top speed in less than 20 yards.
I think FS should simply cause the acceleration "curve" to be steeper for 2-4 ticks, and then go right back to the normal curve. You won't lose any speed, and FS will be helpful, but much more realistic.
I'm going to use numbers, since idk how to paint it any other way:
Normal Accel Curve (each number is on it's own tick): 1, 1.5, 2, 2.75, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5, 6.75, 7.75, 8.75, 10, 10.75, 11.75--
First Step Maxed: 1, 2, 3, 4, - Starts normal curve and continues from there.
I don't think that's the greatest example, but you can see sort of what I'm talking about. Just increase the rate of acceleration for 2-4 ticks, and then go back to the normal values.
Originally posted by Enkidu98
That would do huge damage to the line. Since a tic is a fraction of a second, I figure it represents your explosiveness. Its like a good start off the blocks. where the initial jump is very high, then retreats. I think our aim is the same thing, but for it to work for the D-Line etc, they'll need max speed with a quick drop off.
WR's, HB's etc may need to be treated differently.
First Step Is discussed more with the testing staff seemingly split on whether or not it is overpowered at all, whether it is overpowered for some, and just what positions it would need to be nerfed for, especially the need to not nerf it for D-Linemen.
________________________________________________________
Originally posted by Kirghiz
Aura Of Intimidation
Field General
Line General
Defense General
One Handed Catch
Demoralize - This SA should absolutely not be active on designed QB run plays, and it isn't, but limiting it to only scrambles for yards kind of negates it's value. It should also trigger on any completed pass in which the QB threw it from outside the tackle box.
In response to Demoralize...
Originally posted by Bort
"After any QB rush or pass from outside the pocket, the defense will lose additional morale."
_________________
Originally posted by Mat McBriar
Short Yardage Monster is too powerful. Maybe restrict the effect to runs inside the tackles or something.
I know the AEQ stacking will bring it down a bit, but it still will need more of a nerf.
Originally posted by tautology
On the VA front, Punishing Runner and Adrenaline Junkie seem inherently weak...unless their effects are actually activated on Missed tackles as well as tackles. If that is the case then they might be worthwhile at least on the surface.
Originally posted by Staz
Agree. I'm not a fan of these "% chance for this thing to even work" SAs
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Ongoing.....