Warrior General Games

Another way to make confidence more important is to use confidence where morale is used, and to use morale as a modifier. High confidence with low morale, and low confidence with high morale, could have similar effects in the sim.

I think the problem is that stam and con are viewed as attributes that only avoid bad things for you players without adding any positive value to having them. Tweaking the effect of moral is going to change the way people think about confidence. Increasing it's role in the rolls would though. Con should be huge in the catch ball roll and Deep throws, interception rolls and make/break tackle and block roll should have some (more?) con involved. Same with stamina, every consecutive re-try of the blocking rolls should contain a higher and higher stamina component.

Make it rewards to have high con and stam, don't just penalize low levels.

The way I understand it is that confidence plays a role in many rolls, and that having higher confidence can improve your performance.

What if having a player with tremendous confidence could boost a team's chemistry, even during a midseason trade... rather than be an automatic reduction in chemistry.

Originally posted by Staz
The way I understand it is that confidence plays a role in many rolls, and that having higher confidence can improve your performance.

Actually, no. Morale plays into many roles, but confidence...
Bort
February 6, 2010 Question Does confidence assist in anything except morale? To clarify...does your actual confidence score get used in any actual rolls to "do something"?
Answer Yes, it does. It mostly helps kickers and quarterbacks, but there are also certain things that are determined by rolls vs your confidence score alone.



Seems to say that confidence itself isn't a part of most rolls. Some, but not many.

Originally posted by pottsman
Actually, no. Morale plays into many roles, but confidence...
Bort
February 6, 2010 Question Does confidence assist in anything except morale? To clarify...does your actual confidence score get used in any actual rolls to "do something"?
Answer Yes, it does. It mostly helps kickers and quarterbacks, but there are also certain things that are determined by rolls vs your confidence score alone.



Seems to say that confidence itself isn't a part of most rolls. Some, but not many.

IT should be in all of them, decisive action>indecisive. It should also increase the rate of high risk moves like route jumping, jumping the snap, power tackling, and deep throwing

Originally posted by tester


I really think that Confidence and Stamina need (more) of a role in the actual gameplay...in other words they should figure more heavily into the equations.

I am not talking about Morale and Energy...those effects could use some tweaking as well perhaps, but my point is to have the attributes themselves directly effect what happens on a play a little more than they do now (especially confidence).

I have always thought that a low confidence player ought to have a fundamentally broader range of behavior, from "full potential" to "what the hell was that?"

Basically something like this:

[breakblock score]*[1-x] where x = a RNG factor whose size is bound or parameterized in some way by the ratio of a player's confidence to his level. (might be best to make this a log function of some sort rather than linear).

Essentially a very low confidence player would have a fairly frequent occurrence of being badly hamstrung by a poor random roll, resulting in very inconsistent play.

A very high confidence player would have a very low chance of having a bone-headed moment, resulting in very consistent play.

This methodology could easily apply to vision checks, blocking rolls, tackling rolls, pathing decisions, all sorts of things.


This - moral should effective a players performance snap to snap (1 snap great, the next not so great, then great again - it should effect consistency of play)- not just blanketly degrade his performance over the course of the game.

Confidence should be to vision what agility is to speed.

Vision is your ability to see what's going on... Almost a football intelligence roll. Confidence should be how fast you react to what you are seeing.

As your moral lowers, you become less confident. *Shrugs* That makes complete sense to me. However... What I do disagree with is that it would only further hurt 'worse' teams. I would think that would being scores down, not up... A confused player backs up, and generally gives up more short yards plays than long ones.

I mean hell... Just look at CB's... One gets whipped a couple times and he's playing off the receiver, and really doesn't pay much attention to the QB. He's worried about giving up the big play. Pump fakes shouldn't work near as well anymore against them because they are now playing the receiver instead of the ball. However they are literally giving up yards in the short passing game, which pretty much means the offense has to run more plays to get into the endzone. Which means more chances for the defense to get forced fumbles, sacks, or false starts. At the very least it eats up the clock from short passes ( they'll be more open ) or more turn overs if a team continues to chuck it long on a defense that is already backed up.

Long story short... If you want to be a playmaker then you should have high confidence.

Originally posted by Tigam
Confidence should be to vision what agility is to speed.


I think it already is. Not confirmed, but based on my observations.

Originally posted by ijg
I think it already is. Not confirmed, but based on my observations.

I don't think so... Never seen or heard of a build with 68 confidence. Just not enough change from cap to cap to show that.

Originally posted by Tigam
Originally posted by ijg

I think it already is. Not confirmed, but based on my observations.

I don't think so... Never seen or heard of a build with 68 confidence. Just not enough change from cap to cap to show that.


Most QBs and a lot of O-linemen have 68 confidence or over.

Originally posted by Sik Wit It
Most QBs and a lot of O-linemen have 68 confidence or over.
I was referencing what was already said in the thread. Specifically what I was addressing. Context man... Context.

Originally posted by tester

Stamina - Needs more importance. Perhaps a minimum loss per play even if the player doesn't do much. To help avoid TE's with 200+ pancakes a season playing with less than 40 Stamina. Also, Make it so the SA's/VA's that help regen stamina have more importance again.

Hooter: So, TE's shouldn't have 200+ Pancakes unless they have ungodly Stamina? What if he is Extremely Strong with Good Blocking Skills, but 200+ Pancakes in most likely well over 700+ Plays against DE's that are Lucky to have 70-85 Strength? If you want to fix TE's getting ridiculous Pancake numbers despite low Energy, require DE's to have more Strength.

Confidence - Should be a part of every roll. I believe it already is, but it should be a larger part of every roll than it is presently. Players in the WL with 40 confidence make me QQ because they are still effective and often more so because those SP's were able to be put somewhere else making the build more effective and 'distorted'.

Hooter: Since when is Confidence a Top 3 Skill? Or even Top 5 Skill? It's not and has never been, so there is no need to require every Dot to have High Confidence so become more "effective or distorted". If that was the cause, you'd have to tie in Confidence as Football IQ

Do a pass through of ALL the major rolls that can be made in game. Lets try to make it so that more attributes are involved and that the oppositional roll includes an equal number of attributes. Also, consider something where when the rolls are determined too great a disparity in the attributes has a deleterious effect to the overall success chances of the roll. So that distorted builds with wildly high numbers will not automatically be more successful in most every case.

Hooter: Requiring more Attributes just to Pass a Major Roll will lead to more Rounded Builds and More Cookie Cutter Builds. Such as a Roll to figure out the WR's initial Burst off the Line, the only things included in that should be Speed, Agility and Vision. You don't need to have Stamina, Strength, Confidence or other skills to determine that Roll. Certain Rolls only need 1-3 Attributes, plain and simple.

Blocking - Make blocking more important in the blocking matchups. Strength right now is too determinative of success on blocking rolls. WR's with 60+ Strength (or more with the new Power WR archetypes) shouldn't be able to block as effectively as they can presently. Also, make Blocking more important to determining a pancake. EG, Str > Blocking = Target pushed back briefly but because its 'poor technique' there is little balance loss to the blockee. Blocking > Stre = Block Held and if there was enough of a result for a pushback, greater chance of pancake/loss of balance because the technique is good.

Hooter: This is about the only thing I agree with you on. Blocking needs more importance, but Strength shouldn't become less effective. I think of Strength as a 15 Year old Bully in a 1st Grade Classroom. He's bigger and stronger, but not necessarily smarter. But yet, he can knock over any kid in that class room due to his Size and Strength.

Originally posted by tester

Speaking in terms of vision for RBs, because it's really only used nowadays for fake ability. Not sure if this exists or is just hidden, but there should be some sort of vision check to 'break' their current path on run plays. RBs are still too robotic in their runs.

Hooter: Very true, but usually there is a reason for that. HB's are on a Set Path for so long I believe.

I'll use this play as an example: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1027201&pbp_id=16127026

While that play is supposed to head outside, it would be nice if he could cut it inside (and regardless of power/elusive setting). A hefty vision check (something that ~68 vision on power running would still win) would be favorable. Obviously make it easier for an elusive runner to make the move, but a guy all the way towards power should be be 'exempt' from seeing a hole of that size.

Originally posted by Bort

Outside plays are most prone to that effect, since many use a scripted start.

I don't recall if that one got updated to use waypoints and hotspots, or uses a full scripted start. Those that use hotspots to direct the path have a lot more freedom.

As for energy and morale, I think it's time we make them mean more. I'll probably crank them up for some testing here in a bit.

Originally posted by tester

QB:
- Stamina needs to have an effect on throwing, too, if it doesn't already. The more you throw, the more your arm is going to feel it. Plus, scrambling around, taking sacks, etc. should take a bit out of you as well. Running all over the field (receivers, DBs, etc) needs to take a lot out of you, so you either need to rotate every play, or invest in some stamina. The more speed you have, the more energy you drain. Might help cut back on those 150 speed receivers.

Might help cut back on the 150 Speed Receivers? You want ALL WR's to be just one Speed and that is Fast, but not too Fast? No Chris Johnsons of GLB? This quote bugs me the most. No one in the NFL is the same Speed, some are Faster then others. If this wasn't the case, the 40 Yard Dash wouldn't be such a big deal to anyone.

- Agility needs some sort of use in a typical pocket passer, like setting your feet quickly for a quicker throw, avoiding pressure easier, etc.

Hooter: I can see this being a positive update

- Confidence needs to be a bigger factor in general, or at least in game morale needs to be adjusted.

Hooter: We are in the 15th Season and now just because YOU SAY SO, it needs to be changed? Why? Examples? Replays? Data? Unless you give us a reason other then your OPINION, there is no need for a change.

- Vision should help decide WHICH SA you want to use, if one at all

Hooter: Good suggestion, but I think Bort has said before that you already go through your SA's based on a Roll

Originally posted by Bort

Vision is used in some SA's already, as to allowing them to work or not via a check. Would be interesting to apply a vision check to all skills...

Hooter: So you need a Vision check for Confidence and Stamina and Strength and ect? Vision is purely for Seeing and Recognizing. What else should it be?

Originally posted by tester

I'd like to see energy AND morale have more of an impact. If morale meant more than morale reducing SA's would mean a lot more. Rather than tweak the SA's, bring the sim to the SA's. Confidence would be real important overnight.

Hooter: Once again, just because you think so, and yet offer nothing to the table as to WHY other then your OPINION. If you truly want to do this right, Poll the Community with an Vote on the Home Page like Bort used to do.

Originally posted by catch22

He just uploaded double effect on morale/energy. Testing right now (see requested test thread)

Hooter: DOUBLE? Come on, what happened to a gradual change or test? Not, let's double it and see what happens.

Originally posted by PP

Just leave stamina and confidence have the same impact that they do right now, but make it a bit more harsh (needing more and getting more of a hit from getting tired and low morale) and call it good. It doesn't take more energy for fast guys to run than it does for slow fat guys. That's just not reality and doesn't make sense any sense at all.

Pls, lets not kill the fun in building dots. I'm all for rewarding dots in some ways that have well rounded builds, but completely killing extreme builds would likely kill the game right along with them. For the majority on GLB, building dots is the most fun part of the game, and that's not nearly as fun if you have to make all the dots be well rounded or they're horrid. Sure, they should have disadvantages, such as losing more energy because of lower stamina, but a fast WR or DB using more energy than a slow one doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Let's not kill the fun part of the game.

Hooter: I agree whole heartedly with PP here. A Majority of GLB is Building your Dot's. I can understand getting rid of Super Slow Building because your trying to exploit the game, but Pumping Speed or Pumping Strength or Vision or Stamina or Confidence or any other Skill for that matter is NOT EXPLOITING THE GAME IN ANYWAY. Every year, there is an Freakish & Athletic Football Player that goes to the combines and lights it up. The same applies in GLB. You create a Dot that is just down right fast or strong or adapting to plays via Vision. However, they all are WEAK against something. Speed guys are weak against breaking tackles, Strength Guys are weak against Speed and ect. When you Pump something, they are already sacrificing something to have that Freakish Build to begin with. Now this Tester wants to change all of that.

Originally posted by Catch22

Good point made by (someone else) - The problem with increasing the morale is the better built team will have a much better chance of running away with a game that might have otherwise been close.

I can see that point - morale having more of an impact will just hurt the lesser teams even more.

Originally posted by tester


I really think that Confidence and Stamina need (more) of a role in the actual gameplay...in other words they should figure more heavily into the equations.

I am not talking about Morale and Energy...those effects could use some tweaking as well perhaps, but my point is to have the attributes themselves directly effect what happens on a play a little more than they do now (especially confidence).

I have always thought that a low confidence player ought to have a fundamentally broader range of behavior, from "full potential" to "what the hell was that?"

Basically something like this:

[breakblock score]*[1-x] where x = a RNG factor whose size is bound or parameterized in some way by the ratio of a player's confidence to his level. (might be best to make this a log function of some sort rather than linear).

Essentially a very low confidence player would have a fairly frequent occurrence of being badly hamstrung by a poor random roll, resulting in very inconsistent play.

A very high confidence player would have a very low chance of having a bone-headed moment, resulting in very consistent play.

This methodology could easily apply to vision checks, blocking rolls, tackling rolls, pathing decisions, all sorts of things.





Originally posted by PP

I could buy the confidence part of that, so long as it doesn't completely kill dots with low confidence (not sure how bort would go about balancing it between the various lvls). I really, honestly, seriously think that simply tying stamina to in game energy, as it is now and increasing it's importance, as discussed before (60 stamina is the base line. Below it, assuming a good sub rate, you're feeling a significant skills hit by the half and in the 4th quarter....I've always assumed energy rebuilds to an extent at half time). That should be more then incentive enough to invest in stamina. Besides, it doesn't make sense for stamina itself to factor into any rolls, outside of a player having functionally lower skills because they are tired. It's not realistic that a fresh CB misses a tkl because he has low stamina and will get tired later.

I could see confidence playing a role in real FB activities. That makes sense. If you are afraid that the PB is going to run you over, you may miss more tkls. If you're afraid that the MLB is going to kill you, alligator arms may happen. The other team has a good play or you/your team has a bad play, your moral would suffer. That type of stuff I could buy.

IMO, it's VERY important for us to reward the players that have good conf & stam, but not kill those that don't have 60+. Many of us enjoy building well rounded dots. The fastest WR I've ever made has 84.56 natural speed. Taut pushes the hell out of confidence and stamina, compared to many other builders. I'm not sure we have an extreme builder in this group. However, many, many, many players really enjoy seeing how far they can push their dots. To them, that's most of the fun. I REALLY don't think we should destroy that....If we start doing things like making stamina a part of every roll or making it so you can't make wow plays unless you have great confidence, you start killing the fun.

As someone else once said, don't make fun things less fun, make more things fun. Reward those that have stamina and confidence, but don't kill those that don't just because "we" don't build like that.

Hooter: PP said it best. You'd force everyone to do even MORE Cookie Cutter build, by requiring them to have an certain amount of ability in each skill or they will suck. You'll also Kill all Extreme Builders that add another aspect to the game and make it fun. Other wise, why would we have "Who is the Fastest" or "Who is the Strongest" threads on a weekly basis. Because everyone cares and everyone likes to know who they are or if they can be that guy.



Wow, that took a long time, however it will probably never get read.

Hooter

Excellent post.

And I agree, the thing that bothers me the most is when I see a "tester" (why are they not named in this thread btw?) post something that starts off as "I would like to see," "there should be," or "x attribute should have more of an effect on," and things of that nature. Why does this person's opinion matter? Scientists don't use their own opinions, so why should a tester? If you want to give your opinion, ask for a "Columnist" title or write an editorial. I thought testers were supposed to report results such as "it appears a 50% increase in tackling only reduced missed tackles by 5% when holding strength constant."

Originally posted by Sal Basss
Hooter

Excellent post.

And I agree, the thing that bothers me the most is when I see a "tester" (why are they not named in this thread btw?) post something that starts off as "I would like to see," "there should be," or "x attribute should have more of an effect on," and things of that nature. Why does this person's opinion matter? Scientists don't use their own opinions, so why should a tester? If you want to give your opinion, ask for a "Columnist" title or write an editorial. I thought testers were supposed to report results such as "it appears a 50% increase in tackling only reduced missed tackles by 5% when holding strength constant."

Thanks!

As I mentioned before in my long commented post, if you think or want to see a difference, Show me something other then your OPINION. Where's the replays? Where's the DATA!?!?!

I think we should all get free flex for every post. This is an Opinion. Does it mean it should happen? No. Facts are: GLB as a Business could not survive with that suggestion, so therefore it is impossible. Data & Facts > Opinion.

And before anyone says anything, it's just an example and I haven no intention of it being a suggestion, just a mere ridiculous point to show how ridiculous the suggestions these "Testers" are making.