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Forum > Test Server Discussion > Test Server Discussions > Current Sim Issue - (Make) Secondary Attributes Having More Meaning
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TxSteve
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This is just a previously ongoing discussion moved into it's own thread (instead of buried in "Current Sim Issues".

Originally posted by tester
Stamina - Needs more importance. Perhaps a minimum loss per play even if the player doesn't do much. To help avoid TE's with 200+ pancakes a season playing with less than 40 Stamina. Also, Make it so the SA's/VA's that help regen stamina have more importance again.

Confidence - Should be a part of every roll. I believe it already is, but it should be a larger part of every roll than it is presently. Players in the WL with 40 confidence make me QQ because they are still effective and often more so because those SP's were able to be put somewhere else making the build more effective and 'distorted'.

Do a pass through of ALL the major rolls that can be made in game. Lets try to make it so that more attributes are involved and that the oppositional roll includes an equal number of attributes. Also, consider something where when the rolls are determined too great a disparity in the attributes has a deleterious effect to the overall success chances of the roll. So that distorted builds with wildly high numbers will not automatically be more successful in most every case.

Blocking - Make blocking more important in the blocking matchups. Strength right now is too determinative of success on blocking rolls. WR's with 60+ Strength (or more with the new Power WR archetypes) shouldn't be able to block as effectively as they can presently. Also, make Blocking more important to determining a pancake. EG, Str > Blocking = Target pushed back briefly but because its 'poor technique' there is little balance loss to the blockee. Blocking > Stre = Block Held and if there was enough of a result for a pushback, greater chance of pancake/loss of balance because the technique is good.


Originally posted by tester
Speaking in terms of vision for RBs, because it's really only used nowadays for fake ability. Not sure if this exists or is just hidden, but there should be some sort of vision check to 'break' their current path on run plays. RBs are still too robotic in their runs.

I'll use this play as an example: http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1027201&pbp_id=16127026

While that play is supposed to head outside, it would be nice if he could cut it inside (and regardless of power/elusive setting). A hefty vision check (something that ~68 vision on power running would still win) would be favorable. Obviously make it easier for an elusive runner to make the move, but a guy all the way towards power should be be 'exempt' from seeing a hole of that size.


Originally posted by Bort
Outside plays are most prone to that effect, since many use a scripted start.

I don't recall if that one got updated to use waypoints and hotspots, or uses a full scripted start. Those that use hotspots to direct the path have a lot more freedom.

As for energy and morale, I think it's time we make them mean more. I'll probably crank them up for some testing here in a bit.


Originally posted by tester
QB:
- Stamina needs to have an effect on throwing, too, if it doesn't already. The more you throw, the more your arm is going to feel it. Plus, scrambling around, taking sacks, etc. should take a bit out of you as well. Running all over the field (receivers, DBs, etc) needs to take a lot out of you, so you either need to rotate every play, or invest in some stamina. The more speed you have, the more energy you drain. Might help cut back on those 150 speed receivers.

- Agility needs some sort of use in a typical pocket passer, like setting your feet quickly for a quicker throw, avoiding pressure easier, etc.

- Confidence needs to be a bigger factor in general, or at least in game morale needs to be adjusted.

- Vision should help decide WHICH SA you want to use, if one at all


Originally posted by Bort
Vision is used in some SA's already, as to allowing them to work or not via a check. Would be interesting to apply a vision check to all skills...


Originally posted by tester
I'd like to see energy AND morale have more of an impact. If morale meant more than morale reducing SA's would mean a lot more. Rather than tweak the SA's, bring the sim to the SA's. Confidence would be real important overnight.


Originally posted by catch22
He just uploaded double effect on morale/energy. Testing right now (see requested test thread)


Originally posted by PP
Just leave stamina and confidence have the same impact that they do right now, but make it a bit more harsh (needing more and getting more of a hit from getting tired and low morale) and call it good. It doesn't take more energy for fast guys to run than it does for slow fat guys. That's just not reality and doesn't make sense any sense at all.

Pls, lets not kill the fun in building dots. I'm all for rewarding dots in some ways that have well rounded builds, but completely killing extreme builds would likely kill the game right along with them. For the majority on GLB, building dots is the most fun part of the game, and that's not nearly as fun if you have to make all the dots be well rounded or they're horrid. Sure, they should have disadvantages, such as losing more energy because of lower stamina, but a fast WR or DB using more energy than a slow one doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Let's not kill the fun part of the game.


Originally posted by Catch22
Good point made by (someone else) - The problem with increasing the morale is the better built team will have a much better chance of running away with a game that might have otherwise been close.

I can see that point - morale having more of an impact will just hurt the lesser teams even more.


Originally posted by tester

I really think that Confidence and Stamina need (more) of a role in the actual gameplay...in other words they should figure more heavily into the equations.

I am not talking about Morale and Energy...those effects could use some tweaking as well perhaps, but my point is to have the attributes themselves directly effect what happens on a play a little more than they do now (especially confidence).

I have always thought that a low confidence player ought to have a fundamentally broader range of behavior, from "full potential" to "what the hell was that?"

Basically something like this:

[breakblock score]*[1-x] where x = a RNG factor whose size is bound or parameterized in some way by the ratio of a player's confidence to his level. (might be best to make this a log function of some sort rather than linear).

Essentially a very low confidence player would have a fairly frequent occurrence of being badly hamstrung by a poor random roll, resulting in very inconsistent play.

A very high confidence player would have a very low chance of having a bone-headed moment, resulting in very consistent play.

This methodology could easily apply to vision checks, blocking rolls, tackling rolls, pathing decisions, all sorts of things.





Originally posted by PP
I could buy the confidence part of that, so long as it doesn't completely kill dots with low confidence (not sure how bort would go about balancing it between the various lvls). I really, honestly, seriously think that simply tying stamina to in game energy, as it is now and increasing it's importance, as discussed before (60 stamina is the base line. Below it, assuming a good sub rate, you're feeling a significant skills hit by the half and in the 4th quarter....I've always assumed energy rebuilds to an extent at half time). That should be more then incentive enough to invest in stamina. Besides, it doesn't make sense for stamina itself to factor into any rolls, outside of a player having functionally lower skills because they are tired. It's not realistic that a fresh CB misses a tkl because he has low stamina and will get tired later.

I could see confidence playing a role in real FB activities. That makes sense. If you are afraid that the PB is going to run you over, you may miss more tkls. If you're afraid that the MLB is going to kill you, alligator arms may happen. The other team has a good play or you/your team has a bad play, your moral would suffer. That type of stuff I could buy.

IMO, it's VERY important for us to reward the players that have good conf & stam, but not kill those that don't have 60+. Many of us enjoy building well rounded dots. The fastest WR I've ever made has 84.56 natural speed. Taut pushes the hell out of confidence and stamina, compared to many other builders. I'm not sure we have an extreme builder in this group. However, many, many, many players really enjoy seeing how far they can push their dots. To them, that's most of the fun. I REALLY don't think we should destroy that....If we start doing things like making stamina a part of every roll or making it so you can't make wow plays unless you have great confidence, you start killing the fun.

As someone else once said, don't make fun things less fun, make more things fun. Reward those that have stamina and confidence, but don't kill those that don't just because "we" don't build like that.



 
PP
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Originally posted by PP
I could buy the confidence part of that

In regards to this post, what I mean about confidence, and I need to clarify this on the test server, isn't that low confidence should cause dots to screw up more than they currently do. More so, I think dots with high confidence should screw up less than they currently do. That way, you reward them, without killing others in the process.
 
notthegint
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Originally posted by PP

Originally posted by PP
I could buy the confidence part of that

In regards to this post, what I mean about confidence, and I need to clarify this on the test server, isn't that low confidence should cause dots to screw up more than they currently do. More so, I think dots with high confidence should screw up less than they currently do. That way, you reward them, without killing others in the process.


Someone else had the idea of giving skills a small bonus if you have an excess of stamina. Kind of like a play intensity hard, junior version. I believe the proposal was that energy could actually go over 100, and while it was over you would get the small bonus.

Also, reducing the ability of high strength to offset stamina could be good. A very strong player is not necessarily a well conditioned player.
 
notthegint
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Alternately, you could add a very hard play intensity that gives a 15% bonus to attributes, burns a bunch of energy, and requires 60+ stamina to use. That might be easier to implement.
 
taz20075
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Originally posted by notthegint
Alternately, you could add a very hard play intensity that gives a 15% bonus to attributes, burns a bunch of energy, and requires 60+ stamina to use. That might be easier to implement.


You'd have to fix game XP to match if nobody is allowed to play on hard until 60 stamina. Max XP for everyone!
 
Mightyhalo
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Players with low confidence should be punished. I thought that was the whole point of the skill? Is there some underground build plan where builds with no confidence are dominating? Say it isn't so.
 
notthegint
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Originally posted by taz20075
You'd have to fix game XP to match if nobody is allowed to play on hard until 60 stamina. Max XP for everyone!


I'm totally on board w/ max xp for everyone. (see max xp thread)
But the idea here is a separate VERY hard level of intensity, not changing hard. Although changing hard would make some sense if max xp came in.
 
PP
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Originally posted by Mightyhalo
Players with low confidence should be punished. I thought that was the whole point of the skill? Is there some underground build plan where builds with no confidence are dominating? Say it isn't so.


None are "dominating" that I know of. For example, I know of a TE with the best blking build I've ever seen, period, except he has very low confidence. He's done well this ssn. Hell, he's done very well, but would be at least 35% better if he had confidence
 
Dpride59
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Originally posted by Mightyhalo
Players with low confidence should be punished. I thought that was the whole point of the skill? Is there some underground build plan where builds with no confidence are dominating? Say it isn't so.


They already are. There are a few players who can get away with low confidence, but tbh, the majority of teams already spot 73+ on the entire oline, all playoffs teams rock 10-15 hoac too. You're talking about players already playing at 80-100 conf at the highest level. making conf matter more is going to make the avg user have even less success, and the juggernauts who're top pro/wl teams get even more of an advantage. I know on every team I have we run MLB/NT/C with at least 10 natural leader. Most great teams do. If you make conf matter more, the deeper teams are going to be able to run two full sets of high confidence players, and crush teams even worse. Morale is already a huge factor... Might leave it alone :
 
ijg
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One suggestion: While I'm all for making stam & conf more important, the changes to AE, and nerfing overpowered things like SYM or pump fake, would it be possible to take a gradualist approach?

What I mean is instead of cutting power of something in half all at once and screwing over a lot of builds and causing everyone to do a 180 and look for the newly overpowered trick, why not say "over the next 3 seasons XYZ will be gradually nerfed, with a 1/3 impact each season".

That way, a) builds that get nerfed have more time to adjust w/o becoming puddles, b) there is more stability in the sim so it is easier to identify if the buff/nerf is too severe or causes a corresponding unwanted outcome elsewhere in the sim, and c) there is less ROITing over "you nerfed by build F U".

I realize this won't apply in some situations, but there are some easy ones where it would. The history of GLB is overkill responses to overpowered elements of the sim (pass rush nerf, blink back nerf, screen nerf, etc.).

It ends up being like trying to measure how full the bathtub is after you push the water to one side. The wave get to one end and reverse and make waves the other direction and then hit the other side and reverse again and you never get still water to make a good measurement. (great analogy, I know)

If changes were done more gradually but will full disclosure that the power will increase over time, I think you get a cleaner assessment of whether the changes are balanced or too dramatic with less disturbance to the user base.

I think the closest we have come to that is the AE % change which I think has been handled great. It would have been too traumatic to remove stacking altogether, but maybe we should have taken it one step further and say, the 2nd piece is a 50% haircut for the next two seasons but by the third season the plan is you can't stack % AE at all. That would give agents time to adjust and Bort and Catch time to assess whether 50% is too much, not enough, or just right.

I just worry that all we ever do around here is chase our own tail overreacting to the theme of the moment and by killing the fly with a sledgehammer, all we do is create the next "exploit". Let water find its level rather than keep splashing it around so much.
 
r71runner
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how about letting confidence fire special things at key moments like the clutch VA, it rewards players with high confidence but doesn't hurt players with low confidence, and a single player could stop morale spirals with miracle plays at key moments.

the special things would be set. but the chance for it to happen could be based on how high your confidence is (not moral)
 
Barnzie
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Originally posted by Bort

Vision is used in some SA's already, as to allowing them to work or not via a check. Would be interesting to apply a vision check to all skills...


Most players need to be aware of what's going on around them. There are things that players with low vision should have trouble with. In some areas vision should play a bigger role.

Here's my take on confidence.
Low confidence: Hurried plays, technique breaks down under stress, or plays it safe.
High confidence: Remains calm under pressure. Performance less affected by stress. More aggressive, and more likely to try to turn a play into a bigger play.
 
Saris
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One thing that's always bothered me is that Hard isn't hard enough. With 50 stam at some positions you can play 50 snaps and still be at 95ish energy... and that's with very minimal General skills. If that's the case why even have Hard/Normal/Relaxed? These settings should have pro's and con's, Hard should increase a player's performance but at the cost of greatly reduced snaps and a much steeper Stamina investment. A player with 40 stamina shouldn't even consider playing on Hard. The play intensity setting has so much unutilized potential for additional strategy.

As for Confidence, I agree with those saying Confidence should be more valuable, but I also agree with PP saying extreme builds shouldn't be retroactively trashed for having low confidence. A compromise might be to add an additional mechanic for very high levels of Confidence. For instance if a player is at full or near full morale they could have a chance of entering "The Zone" following a big play. The bonus and length of said Zone could be determined by how far over 50 their Confidence value is.
Edited by Saris on Mar 12, 2010 11:28:47
Edited by Saris on Mar 12, 2010 11:26:15
 
Fumanchuchu
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One way Confidence could be made more important is to allow morale to go above 100 in-game so that confidence isn't just about avoiding a penalty, but getting a bonus too. As in 0 morale=10% penalty, 200 morale=10% bonus. Higher Confidence could then reduce the impact of bad plays and increase the impact of good plays. If going to 70 confidence could get your player a 2-8% bonus across the board, more people would feel like they need it rather than just getting "enough" to avoid the penalty.

It would effectively double the impact of morale without causing the bottom to drop out of a players attributes if it got too low.

***All per cents are hypothetical of course.
Edited by Fumanchuchu on Mar 12, 2010 14:31:46
 
Enkidu98
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Originally posted by Fumanchuchu
One way Confidence could be made more important is to allow morale to go above 100 in-game so that confidence isn't just about avoiding a penalty, but getting a bonus too. As in 0 morale=10% penalty, 200 morale=10% bonus. Higher Confidence could then reduce the impact of bad plays and increase the impact of good plays. If going to 70 confidence could get your player a 2-8% bonus across the board, more people would feel like they need it rather than just getting "enough" to avoid the penalty.

It would effectively double the impact of morale without causing the bottom to drop out of a players attributes if it got too low.

***All per cents are hypothetical of course.


I've made a similar suggestion regarding Chemistry. I think Chemistry should be 'normalised' to 75. Where 75 Chemistry means no penalties or bonuses. Make 100 Chemistry equate to a bonus to all your players performance, but make it harder to obstain as there are restrictions. Required Fan Support, Win Streaks, League Tier, etc. So that its very hard to get into the upper levels of Chemistry. Then, make the lower tier of Chemistry bottom out at 50 because really, not matter how bad a teams chemistry they shouldn;lt be diminished so much.

Then, also provide bonuses to year over year Chemistry based on lower numbers of roster moves etc.

In this way, having high chemistry is a bonus, as opposed to the present situation where any chemistry hit is a negative and you need to be at 100's across the board to perform optimally.
 
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