Warrior General Games

Test date: 3/01/10

Tester: Catch22

Reason for test:
Originally posted by Bort
Took a look at some of the more popular run blitzes out there and I've rewritten the order of operations to make a bit more sense in general, I think.

I'd like to see some tests vs the more popular blitzes where the DE's are split out wide, and any others you know of that work too often for their own good.

Also, I've added the G's fallback lead blocking ability for the C as well, since there seems to be a lot of blitzes where everyone gets sent to the edge, leaving the C open to stand around like a dolt. If he heads upfield instead, those outside blitzes can be burned by some up-the-gut rushing.

Game ID's / Links:

    1892: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1892 (Catch22)
    testing more run block fixes (specifically looking for the T collapsing to take the DT instead of the DE) - mostly weakside

    1893: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1893 (Catch22)
    testing more run block fixes (specifically looking for the T collapsing to take the DT instead of the DE) - running strong side


Teams:
    Test Team 3: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=22
    Test Team 4: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/team.pl?team_id=26
    Player builds: http://test.goallineblitz.com/game_summaries/1893.txt


Method:
Originally posted by Catch22
Running a test right now between TT3 and TT4 with TT3 running DE's wide and OLB's blitzing and TT4 doing nothing but running (with the majority of plays weakside runs).


Results/Discussion:

Originally posted by Bort
Random thought I had on this, with the lead block ability players have:
Wonder if we could figure out a way to have it make a G or the C pull to help out when there's an overload? Some of the most popular blitzes involve sending everyone at the corners and leaving the center totally open, so maybe having the C be able to pull would work. I dunno, I guess driving up the middle should be the real counter to those blitzes.
Originally posted by Catch22
The fix seems to have taken care of the LT going to pick up the DT issue.
I think the overload problem is a pretty big one when it comes to the run game. Just from the blitzing LB'ers that I had in the test game, any time there was a weak side pitch the blitzing LB'er would make the play an auto loss more times then not. Maybe your idea above is a solution - it would be nice if a RB could react to those overloads. If a RB saw four defenders hitting a hole, they would look for a different path to take.
Originally posted by Bort
Sounds like a job for audibles...overload left and I run right, etc. That's always hard to pull off in a game that's supposed to be kind of a chess match, though. You want the game to be sorta smart, but not so smart that planning makes no difference. The OC's weapon against the blitz is completing passes or running the opposite way.
Originally posted by Catch22
not really talking about audibles, talking more about a back seeing the hole being plugged up and cutting back to find where the opening is. I don't see that happen enough... not sure if it's possible for you to code though or if it's a vision issue (maybe something we'd need to test if you think it's vision).
Originally posted by Bort
Usually not going to happen quickly enough because the beginning of the play is scripted so the player will head to the proper hole instead of running off in some unintended direction. The play with the HB set back farther tends to work more along those lines, but others don't give the player enough time to adjust.
Also hard to pull off without having the HB dancing around behind the line looking for a hole.
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Originally posted by Catch22
Another thing I noticed is that the LG pulling on weak side pitches is pretty much worthless. They run into another player the majority of the time and don't accomplish what their intent for the play is.
A couple examples from one series:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409879
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409880 (FB blocking is pretty lol on this one too)
Originally posted by Bort
I think a lot of the problem is that the DE is so far outside, and usually really fast, the closest guy (T) can't get there before he's already moved 2 yards into the backfield. The pulling G pulls right into him.
Originally posted by Bort
Try running those pitches with a faster HB, too. That power HB is kinda slow for outside running. He should get caught pretty often.
Originally posted by Catch22
This is usually what happens when a fast HB (147 speed) gets a pitch (at least what happened in this test game):
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409908
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409917
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409926
Originally posted by Bort
TBH, that's often what happens in the NFL, too, lol. How often do you really see pitches outside of college and high school? NFL defenders are usually just too quick to be fooled by a pitch. Of course, the pulling G would probably be a bit quicker and make his way out there in the NFL...or the QB would call an audible and throw a pass or screen.
What about outside handoffs?
Originally posted by Tester
That's because ball carriers in the higher levels don't just try to get around the edge and out run defenders, they're usually coached to cut back inside their lead blocker, or to cut inside the WR and let him drive the defender to the edge. We don't set up blocks in GLB, and it seems that the pitch pathing is too "set", meaning the RB doesn't exactly get to decide to cut it inside or to turn upfield until he's well outside.
Originally posted by Tester
Maybe the "speed limiter" on pitches is too slow? I remember that was implemented a pretty long time ago. Maybe it's time for an update.
Originally posted by Tester
You know, if there were cut back checks coded into the run plays, and running backs needed 70 vision to hit the roll consistently, it would change elusive running for the better. Could the run plays be coded so that a predetermined cut back was in the HB's run path? Once he hits the trigger spot in the run, he has a vision check to determine which path is better. A fork in the road if you will in the RB's pathing.
Two vision checks actually. The first to even see the cut back lane, and the second to make a decision which way to go.
Originally posted by Bort
I'd say it's a problem if the pitches are not working at all vs defenses that pitches should work against, which I guess would mostly be blitzing the middle heavily...similar to screen passes. Defenders playing the outside zones should tend to eat up the far outside rush. If they don't, pitches are probably too overpowered.
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Originally posted by Catch22
Just got through the 4th quarter... a lot of the DT tackling the QB in the backfield on pitches. That really should be virtually impossible to happen - it happens way too much as it is:
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409970
http://test.goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1892&pbp_id=409971
Originally posted by Bort
That's the problem with the puling G...he pulls and lets the DT in, who has nobody to stop him because the OT and C are otherwise occupied.
Idea: make the G abort a pull if there's a player lined up right over him and he's still unblocked after all assignments are handled?
Originally posted by Bort
This is now added.

Originally posted by Bort

Usually not going to happen quickly enough because the beginning of the play is scripted so the player will head to the proper hole instead of running off in some unintended direction. The play with the HB set back farther tends to work more along those lines, but others don't give the player enough time to adjust.
Also hard to pull off without having the HB dancing around behind the line looking for a hole.


It is a major issue, and should be addressed. Running backs set to elusive should be more "scared" from the closing hole and try to change direction sometimes they get lucky sometimes the lose big.

Here is an idea for the solution: While the RB is in the 'scripted' phase he doesn't look for the hole as he normally does. But he do count, if he see (vision check) more defender in the hole area then blocker he takes two additional vision checks for "emergency cut":
1) Spring outside (in the play direction only)
2) Cut inside (opposite to play direction).
Both check should be a "quick look" if there is miles of open space infront of him he cuts, if no he stay on course. It is important to set it up such that:
1) The RBs will not be too happy to cut (depends on his settings, but even a 80 elusive should not cut too often)
2) He will only see defenders in a narrow vision cone (in the cute direction), making him more eligible for bad cuts (or else it may be too powerful, and just cause defense to play 'blanket').

Originally posted by Bort

TBH, that's often what happens in the NFL, too, lol. How often do you really see pitches outside of college and high school? NFL defenders are usually just too quick to be fooled by a pitch. Of course, the pulling G would probably be a bit quicker and make his way out there in the NFL...or the QB would call an audible and throw a pass or screen.
What about outside handoffs?


With the slight distinction that a RGH pulling all the way to the right will usually come with some kind of fake (a counter for example) trying to freeze the defense (and stall the HB) giving the RG a real chance to block. Of course there are counter examples to that rule (fig 3 in the following). Check this link for all you wanted to know about sweep/pitch plays in the NFL

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/walkthrough/2007/too-deep-zone-sunday-sweeps

Originally posted by Bort

That's the problem with the puling G...he pulls and lets the DT in, who has nobody to stop him because the OT and C are otherwise occupied.
Idea: make the G abort a pull if there's a player lined up right over him and he's still unblocked after all assignments are handled?

I think we been in the abort pull era and changed that ?
In the relevnat replays the D had 4 players left to the LG, so no way the offense can account for all of them. The OT should block inside (DT), the FB takes the DE of the edge and the LG can lead the run. The LG will need to choose between the the ROLB and FS. If the ROLB blitzes (and liekly cannot make the play) the LG can get the FS down field and the offense have a nice solution for this run blitz.
(Edit: my stupidity corrected, just above)