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tuba_samurai
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Test Server Discussion about Kick-off Distance and the need to reduce the prevalence of touchbacks.

Most agree that KO distance needs to be reduced somewhat as some kickers are averaging touchbacks 80% of the time.

The discussion is ongoing...

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Originally posted by
I think it's time to knock it back again. Every kick is a touch back. It's becoming pointless.

Thoughts?

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Originally posted by
I agree, and I think a small percentage of the time the kick should go out of bounds as well for a penalty.

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Originally posted by
No thanks, it would not be good to have that happen at random times especially if it could decide the outcome of a game.

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Originally posted by
I don't think knocking it back is a good idea unless your distance findings are a global result, not one from observing just the WL and competitive pros.

These leagues represent a small minority of the players built and often the players built following a very specific build plan so its very likely they are all going to perform well because they've been made to game the system. Changes made to accommodate those builds will then completely destroy the effectiveness of more 'realistic' builds that seem to be closer to the norm.

So, any 'tweaks' to the system to lower the distance shouldn;t just be a flat, remove some velocity from kickoffs but instead involve making kickoff distance involve more attributes and put penalties in for large disparities between relevant attributes. Thus kickoff distance may be better for some player but others who have emphasised the cookie cutter/carbon copy build plans end up making shorter kicks.

Then, make the attributes involved in a kick off each matter in different ways, to encourage differentiation. ALL Kickers need a good kicking attributes. But maybe higher strength could result in a behaviour on kickoffs (Say, the ball has more force than is usual so it takes a bit longer to gain control of the ball) Agility allows for the kicker to give the ball a little extra something in the quality of its movement, so maybe there is a higher tendancy to fumble/bobble the kick off. More vision might mean the Kicker is very accurate in placing their kicks, and there is some sort of pre-snap read of the return team and an analysis made that allows the kicker to kick to one side or the other and create a blocking disparity for the return, etc...

In this way, builds and such do matter, but we're not just re-emphasizing cookie cutter builds. Same could be true of Punting, passing, etc. More strength doesn't necessarily equate to pass distance (make Agility, Throwing and Strength and their combined value equate to pass distance) but more strength makes passes harder to intercept (but also harder to catch) while more agility makes passes easier to catch but also easier for the defense to hold on to in an interception. High strength equates to the ball being able to continue on in its route closer on a deflection and thus possibly caught by the receiver more often on a deflection, but high agility means the ball has more touch, so while if it is deflected it is not caught, its harder to deflect in the first place.

Make attributes matter in different ways instead of just tweaking the formulas to accommodate people who have determined the formula and then abused it.

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Originally posted by
Great post on this.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3804541&page=1

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Originally posted by
I agree that GLB would improve if kickoffs were scaled back a bit, but I think that will be tough to do in a balanced fashion with Big Boot without making that VA mandatory.

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Originally posted by
For NFL reference: Kickoff Touchback Percentage

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct

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Originally posted by
Exactly.

GLB best kickers are 80% touchbacks.

NFL is 40%.

Needs a major change IMO.

End game should be 20-40%.

Lower levels 10-20%.


Edited by tuba_samurai on Mar 2, 2010 19:59:02
 
Octowned
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Just make sure that low level kickers don't get worse. They are already kicking absurdly low distances (yes - they should be, they are in lower level leagues, but it really makes the games weird when every offense starts at midfield)
 
beenlurken
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Cant tell you how happy I am to see yall discussing this.
 
EagleOtto
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There needs to be a way to nerf the high end without affecting the low end (and medium ranges)
A diminishing returns formula for kick off distance.
 
PackMan97
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I think a good change would be scaling hang time up while pulling back the distance a bit. A younger kicker should have a lower and shorter kick...while a veteran in his prime should have a long high kick.

I'd say ideally a kicker in their prime should be able to get a nice high kick to about 5 yards into the end zone...and at the point where the ball is caught the coverage team should be down around the 25-30 yard line or so making it so if the guy tries to return it, there is a good chance he's down inside the 20....
 
Hikariu
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Originally posted by EagleOtto
There needs to be a way to nerf the high end without affecting the low end (and medium ranges)
A diminishing returns formula for kick off distance.


 
NiborRis
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I've often thought that kicking difficulty should scale with league - after all, you get a taller tee in high school and start closer than you do in college, and the tee shrinks again in NFL (if I remember right). So you could institute a "higher tee" effect in the upper minors by letting kickoff distances be longer/higher at that level, and you could have another step down at 14-cap or somewhere, where you actually move the kickoff line in. Then low level kickers aren't ruining the game in their leagues, but the high level kickers aren't booming it out the back of the endzone 80% of the time, either.

You could do something similar with FGs, btw, to represent "kicking from a tee" at the very lowest levels. This would be similar in approach to the passing scaling changes, only be a little more grounded in reality. The kicking game is just player vs field, not player vs player, so it's no surprise that it's hard to keep it "football like" across the entire length of a career.
 
beenlurken
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This might piss off the purists... but the fix could be something as simple as this...

Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun
How about this:
Change the position of the kickoff.

1-22 leagues kick off from the 40.
24-34 leagues kick off from the 35.
36-46 leagues kick off from the 30.
A+ leagues kick off from the 25.
 
tragula
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Originally posted by beenlurken
This might piss off the purists... but the fix could be something as simple as this...

Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun

How about this:
Change the position of the kickoff.

1-22 leagues kick off from the 40.
24-34 leagues kick off from the 35.
36-46 leagues kick off from the 30.
A+ leagues kick off from the 25.



blah ...

Better to compensate for the low level (and nerf the kick length)
1-22 leagues kick off from the 50.
24-34 leagues kick off from the 45.
36-46 leagues kick off from the 40.
A+ leagues kick off from the 35.
 
beenlurken
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http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=1079739

Lets face it... kickoffs are broken

16 kickoffs in that game... ELEVEN went for 80+ yards... 2 of the 5 that stayed in play were 78 yard TB's

The only reason all 16 KO's did not go for 80+ was because neither kicker has more than 30 stamina so they tired a little.


The is nothing more to discuss... its time to start making the fix.
 
Barnzie
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A Matter of Physics

Kicking distance is all a matter of physics. The factors of force are mass and acceleration. The factors of kinetic energy are mass and velocity. Every kicker will have a similar mass in his foot, so the main variables in kicking distance are velocity and acceleration. The quicker that foot is moving the more force and energy can be transfered to the ball.

The second part of the equation is the transference of energy. How much of the foot's energy is transfered to the ball will depend on how well the foot makes contact with the ball. The better the contact the more energy is transfered during impact.

Kicking the Ball

The two factors are:
1. Footspeed, or power. This defines the potential distance of the ball.
2. Contact, or form and technique. The defines how well the ball actually travels.

Kicking power comes from explosive strength and dynamic flexibility.

Kickers with good technique should be able to consistently make good contact with the ball. Kickers with poor technique should be less consistent. On inaccurate kicks direction, trajectory, and velocity could all be affected. How badly they are affected should depend on the quality of the kick.

You can relate this to GLB to decide which attributes should be important. IMO the primary attributes should be strength and agility for power, and kicking and confidence for contact.

Max Distance

There should be a ceiling on the maximum distance a kicker may kick a ball, determined by his attributes and SAs. The kicker cannot kick the ball any further than this distance on field goals, except as a result of VAs.

On kickoffs kickers with the Booming Kick VA may kick it further, but the VA needs to be altered. Perhaps a +2% per level to max distance to give a 60 yard max distance kicker with 15 BK a 78 yard max kickoff distance, and a 65 yard kicker a max kickoff distance of 84.5 yards.

I think the formulas need to be reworked. To clear the crossbar on a 60 yard FG with a 40 degree trajectory a kicker needs to be able to kick the ball 65 yards. Take that as the range of an average pro level distance kicker, and 25 yards as the range of an average peewee kicker, and use that (or similar numbers) as a guide.
 
Staz
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What if we simply increase the angle/height of kick offs and allow kickers to kick to different spots (Instead of dead center).

If we lessen the distance, increase the angle, and improve kick off returns, we'll get fewer touch backs without negatively impacting the return game.
 
TyrannyVaunt
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Originally posted by Staz
What if we simply increase the angle/height of kick offs and allow kickers to kick to different spots (Instead of dead center).

If we lessen the distance, increase the angle, and improve kick off returns, we'll get fewer touch backs without negatively impacting the return game.


This sounds like a good compromise. I think it would be good to see the ball bounce around some too. Every ball being caught is very unrealistic.

Kickers should have a slider for hangtime - and degree loft. Think of it like a golf shot... You can hit a 3iron low and long... But a 6 iron will be shorter - but much longer hang time.
 
Guppy, Inc
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make distance directly tied to a function of kicking over strength, with the other attributes affecting kick location, hangtime, etc. so lower leveled kickers can still get decent kicks but they will just go down the middle. in college, we used to sneak into the stadium to kick the ball around, and all of us could kick it 40+ yards, and frequently 60+. No actual kicker at any level should be kicking it less than 60 IMO.
Edited by Guppy, Inc on Mar 6, 2010 19:33:24
 
Barnzie
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NCAA Division 1 FBS 2009 Season (Team stats)

Avg. Kickoff Distance: 53.55 - 67.95 yds (median avg. distance: 61.78yds)
Touchback Percentage: 0.00 - 47.95 % (median: 9.56%)
Out-of-bounds Percentage: 0.00 - 10.90 % (median: ~2%)

http://www.cfbstats.com/2009/leader/national/team/offense/split01/category29/sort01.html


NFL 2009 Regular Season (Team stats)

Avg. Kickoff Distance: 59.8 - 70.0 yds (median avg. distance: 64.7 yds)
Touchback Percentage: 3.7 - 36.8 % (median: 11.95%)
Out-of-bounds Percentage: 0.00 - 4.6 % (median: ~1.2%)
 
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