Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Bukowski
I agree.

If a QB needs 85 Vision just to be able to perform this basic task, it just further penalizes lower-level passing, which is already damn near impossible.

Yeah it seems like 85 is really excessive. I know everyone is pointing to the 2 WL QBs saying the passing game is fine and fix your build. I have a feeling that when they can't stack AEQ anymore they won't look so unstoppable. I just wish we would here that they are working on something and what it is. IMO something needs to be done and this season.

Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
Originally posted by Bukowski

I agree.

If a QB needs 85 Vision just to be able to perform this basic task, it just further penalizes lower-level passing, which is already damn near impossible.

Yeah it seems like 85 is really excessive. I know everyone is pointing to the 2 WL QBs saying the passing game is fine and fix your build. I have a feeling that when they can't stack AEQ anymore they won't look so unstoppable. I just wish we would here that they are working on something and what it is. IMO something needs to be done and this season.

I've been thinking the same thing.

Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
I have a feeling that when they can't stack AEQ anymore they won't look so unstoppable.

Not for the reasons you think tho... It isn't so much the qb % but it is the WR%/QB%/Entire Oline%/ situational va's%/ and mentor if that actually works /laff

Originally posted by David Stern
Originally posted by Tigerbait0307

I have a feeling that when they can't stack AEQ anymore they won't look so unstoppable.

Not for the reasons you think tho... It isn't so much the qb % but it is the WR%/QB%/Entire Oline%/ situational va's%/ and mentor if that actually works /laff

Well yeah, it all goes together.

Originally posted by David Stern
Not for the reasons you think tho... It isn't so much the qb % but it is the WR%/QB%/Entire Oline%/ situational va's%/ and mentor if that actually works /laff

Exactly..

Any work on what passing fixes are coming down the pipe Taut. (or any tester that might know)

It definitely needs a vision check to see an open man, it should never be automatic.

all I know, IRL there was an Eagles game I was watching and twice in the first half Maclin was WIDE open (I mean no one within 20 yards of him, blown coverage) and McNabb never even saw him to throw to him from his progressions. Wanting GLB to be better than real life just shouldn't happen.

Originally posted by geekor
It definitely needs a vision check to see an open man, it should never be automatic.

all I know, IRL there was an Eagles game I was watching and twice in the first half Maclin was WIDE open (I mean no one within 20 yards of him, blown coverage) and McNabb never even saw him to throw to him from his progressions. Wanting GLB to be better than real life just shouldn't happen.

Comparing GLB to NFL football shouldn't happen. I agree that there should be a vision check and there is. I just believe it should be lowered. IMO QBs throw into double or triple coverage when there is a better option way to often.

Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
Originally posted by geekor

It definitely needs a vision check to see an open man, it should never be automatic.

all I know, IRL there was an Eagles game I was watching and twice in the first half Maclin was WIDE open (I mean no one within 20 yards of him, blown coverage) and McNabb never even saw him to throw to him from his progressions. Wanting GLB to be better than real life just shouldn't happen.

Comparing GLB to NFL football shouldn't happen. I agree that there should be a vision check and there is. I just believe it should be lowered. IMO QBs throw into double or triple coverage when there is a better option way to often.

Exactly.

Passing is hard enough as it is. No reason to make it even more difficult, by making the Vision check impossible for all but the highest level of players.

Originally posted by Tigerbait0307

Any work on what passing fixes are coming down the pipe Taut. (or any tester that might know)


Originally posted by Bukowski

Passing is hard enough as it is. No reason to make it even more difficult, by making the Vision check impossible for all but the highest level of players.


Remember, the vision check (and QBs in general) scale with level a bit, in order to help out the lowbies. Not sure exactly how that works at all levels, but most level 48 or so QBs can roll with 80-85 vision these days, yes? And it does work with lower vision, just not as well. 85 is around the point where Ithink it becomes fairly effective....but it still works at lower levels.



There is some talk about changing the way aggressive and semi-aggressive settings work for CBs, and there is talk about trying to create more realistic over/under and inside/outside double coverage for m2m, and man+zone shell situations...but that second part seems complicated to code properly so I wouldn't hold your breath.

But I am curious...you and Bukowski both feel passing is broken somehow? If anything I think the passing game is a hair too easy right now (but I'll admit I think that almost every season because I like to run the ball )...are you talking about general balance or some specific behaviors?

You can do a lot with progressions...it is a very powerful tool.

No, I don't think passing is broken. I wouldn't describe it as that. But overall, it could probably use a little buff.

I know there are a few high level teams that are having tremendous success with it, I was just mainly commenting on the lower levels of the game. But even when looking around at some of the top leagues, passing completion percentage just seems consistently on the low side. Of course there are a couple of successful examples, but I don't think an entire team should have to be dedicated to the pass, just to be decent at it.

But even on the highest levels, it seems like the only teams that are having tremendous success, are the ones that are stacking multiple pieces of Pass Quality %, Catch Ball Chance %, and probably even Hold Block %.

So no, I don't mean to sound like it is completely broken. It just seems a little more difficult to accomplish than it probably should.

EDIT: And I'm glad that you mentioned that the Vision check thing was scaled down according to level, that makes me feel better about that, as I really had no idea.

The holy grail in the eyes of many folks (myself included) would be a way for QBs to anticipate routes and read coverage better.

That's how real football works.

But it is tough to figure out exactly how to represent that algorithmically.

Originally posted by tautology

But it is tough to figure out exactly how to represent that algorithmically.


Doesn't seem like a huge challenge. However, for GLB sim it is hard since GLB is practically memory less.
For good reading by the QB (or any position) there is a huge effect of memory. It has two factors (both missing in GLB)
1) players learn the opposition from play to play and react accordingly. Example: A QB can remember that when a SS is starting more then 5 yds away from the LOW he will play a deep zone
2) players know what the opposition did from the play start and use that to understand what he is doing. Example: A QB see the MLB takes a step toward the LOS at the snap and read that he likely play man on an RB and not a mid zone.

With a sim based on (almost) memory less probability rolls, generating a 'realistic looking' game is hard/impossible.

Another element that really need to be fixed is the whey DBs cover players. They should know to use under/over coverage to be more effectively when double teaming.

One question I had about passing.. Is double coverage recognised and counted as a penalty when deciding who to throw the ball to?

I understand that may be a Bort-answerable-only question, but I thought I'd throw it out there..

Originally posted by Tigerbait0307
Comparing GLB to NFL football shouldn't happen. I agree that there should be a vision check and there is. I just believe it should be lowered. IMO QBs throw into double or triple coverage when there is a better option way to often.

IMO the aim of this game should be to simulate NFL play. I think it is prudent to say that if an NFL QB doesn't always see a wide open man then neither should a GLB QB. Realism has been the long stated aim of this game. THat said your point right after that is right on. They just throw when there is pressure. I can't go anymore to the open man than -100, QB has 86 VIS and he passes up open guys early in the progression and then throws into triple coverage 25 yds downfield when he is finally pressured.

Shoulnd't the sim have something to simulate the QBs "internal clock". QBs know they have only so much time to get rid of the ball. SHouldn't the QB after a certain amount of ticks break off progressions and look for the checkdown man. Is there a checkdown man in the GLB plays? HB dumps are not always the set checkdown pass in football. It could be a TE or less often a WR.

The teams that are passing at a high rate just know what plays to run. There are several screwed up plays that allow routes to get open way more often. It's called an exploit, and there is quite a bit of it going around this season. It won't get fixed this season either.

If the D hasn't adjusted their AI much this season, then they can take even more advantage. It's all in the know.