Warrior General Games

I am seeing some real weird stuff now.

In the example below the ROLB is set for a zone weak half. The play is a run play and the ROLB seems to recognize the run and even moves towards the run. Then he still drops into his zone.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=551484&pbp_id=2459339

I would prefer the ROLB abandon his zone when he sees a run play. What is the point of dropping into a zone after the play is clearly a run play?

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PinTBC

Actually it would be relatively handy to know what Bort thinks is a good number for vision to make this check.

Not Bort would actually let anyone know... If it is 60 - 65, then there is something badly wrong with his code.

PinTBC

He'll make the check eventually....higher vision will just help make it more quickly.

As for the failure to blitz, I have seen this behavior in past seasons as well.

My speculation has always been that if the blitzer fails to get a good jump, or is blitzing from far away, they will sometimes determine that they have no chance to be an effective blitzer and try to drop into coverage somewhere.

Can't say for certain, but blitzers bailing out of a blitz is not a new phenomenon...it just requires certain circumstances to see it happen.

Taut,

All my linebackers have over 60+ vision and they are standing still for a significant long time while the guy they are assigned to cover run past them into a pass pattern. I realize that they will eventually "wake up" and make the check, but if Bort's intent is to require say a 65 vision to move within 3 clicks or so, then I expect he has something wrong with his code.

Right now, I don't see how I can assign a linebacker to cover anything in Man to man, and all the linebackers that I would normally assign into coverage have what I would consider at least decent vision.

PinTBC

Ditto here with LBs - even guys with 60-ish vision are very very slow to make the reads...

I'm also noticing that FS in cover 1 is very slow to react to the ball on plays created on the DPC vs. plays last year without the DPC. I don't know whether there's something inherently slower about reactions in DPC zones, or whether the vision checks have just become much more onerous.

Originally posted by OttawaShane

I'm also noticing that FS in cover 1 is very slow to react to the ball on plays created on the DPC vs. plays last year without the DPC. I don't know whether there's something inherently slower about reactions in DPC zones, or whether the vision checks have just become much more onerous.

I've had the same problem. The FS never tries to help the CB on the WR on a deep ball out of deep middle zone even with no one in his zone. It seems like he continues to watch to see if a TE or HB 10 yards south of him might consider running his way so he won't leave to help the CB.

Originally posted by AngryDragon
I am seeing some real weird stuff now.

In the example below the ROLB is set for a zone weak half. The play is a run play and the ROLB seems to recognize the run and even moves towards the run. Then he still drops into his zone.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=551484&pbp_id=2459339

I would prefer the ROLB abandon his zone when he sees a run play. What is the point of dropping into a zone after the play is clearly a run play?



Good catch man...

Could it be that he thought it was play action, and that the handoff didn't actually occur? Failed read?

Originally posted by ijg
Originally posted by OttawaShane


I'm also noticing that FS in cover 1 is very slow to react to the ball on plays created on the DPC vs. plays last year without the DPC. I don't know whether there's something inherently slower about reactions in DPC zones, or whether the vision checks have just become much more onerous.

I've had the same problem. The FS never tries to help the CB on the WR on a deep ball out of deep middle zone even with no one in his zone. It seems like he continues to watch to see if a TE or HB 10 yards south of him might consider running his way so he won't leave to help the CB.

To put this in plain terms for those with power take a closer look:

Last season, in cover1 a FS would often break towards the intended receiver before or just as the ball was being thrown.

Now, in cover1 they tend to not break to the ball until the receiver has caught the ball, and even then, rather ineffectively.

Originally posted by PinTBC
Originally posted by tautology

Originally posted by PinTBC


Actually it would be relatively handy to know what Bort thinks is a good number for vision to make this check.

Not Bort would actually let anyone know... If it is 60 - 65, then there is something badly wrong with his code.

PinTBC

He'll make the check eventually....higher vision will just help make it more quickly.

As for the failure to blitz, I have seen this behavior in past seasons as well.

My speculation has always been that if the blitzer fails to get a good jump, or is blitzing from far away, they will sometimes determine that they have no chance to be an effective blitzer and try to drop into coverage somewhere.

Can't say for certain, but blitzers bailing out of a blitz is not a new phenomenon...it just requires certain circumstances to see it happen.

Taut,

All my linebackers have over 60+ vision and they are standing still for a significant long time while the guy they are assigned to cover run past them into a pass pattern. I realize that they will eventually "wake up" and make the check, but if Bort's intent is to require say a 65 vision to move within 3 clicks or so, then I expect he has something wrong with his code.

Right now, I don't see how I can assign a linebacker to cover anything in Man to man, and all the linebackers that I would normally assign into coverage have what I would consider at least decent vision.

PinTBC

As I said in a follow up post, the max delay time (if you fail the check badly) does seem a little extreme...and might be cut down by 25% or so for better game play.

But in general...


I am not really seeing the issue much more than there has always been a potential delay.

In this DPC play, the MLB is in man, responds just fine, LOLB is in zone, also responds fine, FS makes an early break on the ball.


http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546085&pbp_id=2424076

Taut,

That is the reason I was asking. If a 60 to 65 vision linebacker is supposed to be delaying long enough so that he ends up chasing the TE, then that is fine, I'll work with it, but while I can find some plays (to be honest most plays) where my guys seem to pass the check decently quickly, I can also find a significant number where the TE or HB ends up uncovered for way too long.

So my curiosity is more of a question of the design goals.

PinTBC

Originally posted by PinTBC
Taut,

That is the reason I was asking. If a 60 to 65 vision linebacker is supposed to be delaying long enough so that he ends up chasing the TE, then that is fine, I'll work with it, but while I can find some plays (to be honest most plays) where my guys seem to pass the check decently quickly, I can also find a significant number where the TE or HB ends up uncovered for way too long.

So my curiosity is more of a question of the design goals.

PinTBC

Gotcha.

My experience has been similar from the sound of it...

Decent vision (65ish, let's say) will allow you to pass the check within a tick most of the time. Poor vision (50, let's say) will often fail for several ticks. Good vision (80 for instance) will respond almost perfectly almost all of the time.

It seems as though you get a check on every tick, and you auto-pass after 4 checks or so...just from what I can tell. 20 vision and enough speed to catch up is all you really need

I guess my point is that I am not seeing any difference between DPC plays and standard plays, nor any real difference between season 8 and season 9 on this topic.

Sigh...so first lb's are told get more strength and tackling..Powerbacks are here to stay.

Now its 80 in vision.(I realize thats a guess, but it seems about right. tested with a high 70's vision lb and he still was sitting there while the folks out of the backfield went by)..where the beep beep are all these phantom points suppose to show up from.

I think Bort needs to step back and think about just how many points are avialable for use and what he is requiring for the lbers to be effective. going from 60 to 80 is mighty expensive in terms of skill points.

I think he has set the bar to high. 60 vision fine..65..a strecth but fine.. anymore and its go back and slow build to be able to meet all the nutty requirements....I honestly thought that he didnt want to encourage slow building..But thats exactly what he is going to be doing with moves like this.

I'd like to see a LB with 80+ vision, actually...I don't think they exist, except for maybe one or two "experiment" players out there...

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PinTBC

Originally posted by tautology


Originally posted by PinTBC



Actually it would be relatively handy to know what Bort thinks is a good number for vision to make this check.

Not Bort would actually let anyone know... If it is 60 - 65, then there is something badly wrong with his code.

PinTBC

He'll make the check eventually....higher vision will just help make it more quickly.

As for the failure to blitz, I have seen this behavior in past seasons as well.

My speculation has always been that if the blitzer fails to get a good jump, or is blitzing from far away, they will sometimes determine that they have no chance to be an effective blitzer and try to drop into coverage somewhere.

Can't say for certain, but blitzers bailing out of a blitz is not a new phenomenon...it just requires certain circumstances to see it happen.

Taut,

All my linebackers have over 60+ vision and they are standing still for a significant long time while the guy they are assigned to cover run past them into a pass pattern. I realize that they will eventually "wake up" and make the check, but if Bort's intent is to require say a 65 vision to move within 3 clicks or so, then I expect he has something wrong with his code.

Right now, I don't see how I can assign a linebacker to cover anything in Man to man, and all the linebackers that I would normally assign into coverage have what I would consider at least decent vision.

PinTBC

As I said in a follow up post, the max delay time (if you fail the check badly) does seem a little extreme...and might be cut down by 25% or so for better game play.

But in general...


I am not really seeing the issue much more than there has always been a potential delay.

In this DPC play, the MLB is in man, responds just fine, LOLB is in zone, also responds fine, FS makes an early break on the ball.


http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=546085&pbp_id=2424076

Yeah he makes an early break and the WR still catches it. Agrrr!

Oh and to all out there I can see his build. Nan Nan

Originally posted by OttawaShane
Ditto here with LBs - even guys with 60-ish vision are very very slow to make the reads...

I'm also noticing that FS in cover 1 is very slow to react to the ball on plays created on the DPC vs. plays last year without the DPC. I don't know whether there's something inherently slower about reactions in DPC zones, or whether the vision checks have just become much more onerous.

I've been seeing that with my ROLB all season.

Originally posted by G.O.D Turner
I'd like to see a LB with 80+ vision, actually...I don't think they exist, except for maybe one or two "experiment" players out there...

yeah, have 80 vision and 60 speed, tackling, and 50 strength

Originally posted by oronis
Originally posted by OttawaShane

Ditto here with LBs - even guys with 60-ish vision are very very slow to make the reads...

I'm also noticing that FS in cover 1 is very slow to react to the ball on plays created on the DPC vs. plays last year without the DPC. I don't know whether there's something inherently slower about reactions in DPC zones, or whether the vision checks have just become much more onerous.

I've been seeing that with my ROLB all season.

Other than what seems to be an extra long read by the linebackers, I am finding the Sim this season a pretty decent Sim.

1) Even though I argued with Ken, I was a bit afraid of the rushing game getting crushed, but I am seeing our team do a very good job rushing. One thing people probably should consider is that there are significantly more rushing plays than just the halfback slam. If defenses are stacked to stop the off tackle rush to the strong side, the weak side can be exploited and vice versa.

2) The passing game seems much more fluid than it was last season. In our first two games, our QBs checked down when they should have and seemed to be able to focus on the main receiver MUCH better than last season. The throws are generally on target or at least close enough so it looks like a good football throw.

3) The ability to select who covers who in man coverage is fantastic for defensive co-ordinators, and makes it a bit tougher for offenses to get cheap mismatches.

4) I like the increased emphasis on the carry skill for HBs, it forces them into the same choices the defense has been forced to make for more than a few seasons.

Problems:

I'm seeing what looks to be two minor problems.

1) The linebacker delay looks a bit large. If you shorten it too much though it won't be effective opening up the short passing game.

2) I've seen a few plays in today's games where my defense suddenly "morphed" and people shifted around that previously were set into positions. My linebackers suddenly piled up in the center of the field, instead of spreading out like I had them. I did have them covering the HB man to man, BUT it was described to me that only people out of the box would move to cover their man, so they should have stayed put?

It wasn't happening in the first two games.

PinTBC