Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Bort
They will. If that guy doesn't run a route, then they will keep going through their progression and head over to cover the next receiver from where they are at.

Something doesn't make sense there.

He was asking if the defender would line up over his second option if his first option isn't on the field. Should be a no brainer to adjust to that.

But, you say that "if the guy doesn't run a route" then they will "head over to cover the next receiver from where they are at."

What actually happens is that if the guy isn't on the field to be covered....the defender lines up where ever he was positioned in the DPC and then tries to cover that man from there.

If you look at 3 and 5 WR plays, then create a nickel cover 0 play with 3 cb's and 2 safeties with the following assignments:

cb1....cover man...wr1....zone
cb2.....cover man..wr2....zone
cb3.....cover man..wr3....zone
FS......cover man...wr4....hb....zone
SS......cover man...wr5....te.....zone

All of the other players are set blitz. Since the safeties are set to cover man, you don't move them in the DPC because they should line up over their man.

Here's what happens in practice. against 5 wr sets the players line up over their man and react accordingly the way you would expect. The safeties drop down and line up over the 4 and 5 WR"s.

Against 3 wr sets, the safeties don't have a 4 or 5 to line up over so instead of lining up over their man....they drop back to the default safety position and try to cover their next man from there. That means that the FS will line up deep and to the weak side while trying to cover the HB. He does cover his second option, but he does not line up over him.

Originally posted by Llyranwyar
Something doesn't make sense there.

He was asking if the defender would line up over his second option if his first option isn't on the field. Should be a no brainer to adjust to that.

But, you say that "if the guy doesn't run a route" then they will "head over to cover the next receiver from where they are at."

What actually happens is that if the guy isn't on the field to be covered....the defender lines up where ever he was positioned in the DPC and then tries to cover that man from there.

If you look at 3 and 5 WR plays, then create a nickel cover 0 play with 3 cb's and 2 safeties with the following assignments:

cb1....cover man...wr1....zone
cb2.....cover man..wr2....zone
cb3.....cover man..wr3....zone
FS......cover man...wr4....hb....zone
SS......cover man...wr5....te.....zone

All of the other players are set blitz. Since the safeties are set to cover man, you don't move them in the DPC because they should line up over their man.

Here's what happens in practice. against 5 wr sets the players line up over their man and react accordingly the way you would expect. The safeties drop down and line up over the 4 and 5 WR"s.

Against 3 wr sets, the safeties don't have a 4 or 5 to line up over so instead of lining up over their man....they drop back to the default safety position and try to cover their next man from there. That means that the FS will line up deep and to the weak side while trying to cover the HB. He does cover his second option, but he does not line up over him.

they will line up over second option under a couple set rules:

1. They WON'T line up over men in the backfield, because defensive guidelines tells us that if LBs/Safeties did this it would really F up run protection in case they do run

2. They WON'T line up over a TE for the same reasons, you have to position them for 'inside' receivers, they can only move freely on 'wide receivers'

basically, if you are going to force a play that is not meant to cover multiple sets to do so, plan ahead. Line the player up where you want him for the HB/TE that he should cover second, and if his primary target comes out on the field he will move from there to cover the 'wide receiver' because that is what he is now assigned as.

There are two types of defenders in man to man, inside and out. they follow different principles in football.

Originally posted by Llyranwyar
.

My question was referring making sure that testing occurred w/ regards to players lining up properly after bort added the progression to the Defense. The question was to make sure that when that occurred, several seasons ago, nothing accidentally was removed/added. You read too much into an old question and response.

Originally posted by Raid
they will line up over second option under a couple set rules:

1. They WON'T line up over men in the backfield, because defensive guidelines tells us that if LBs/Safeties did this it would really F up run protection in case they do run

2. They WON'T line up over a TE for the same reasons, you have to position them for 'inside' receivers, they can only move freely on 'wide receivers'

basically, if you are going to force a play that is not meant to cover multiple sets to do so, plan ahead. Line the player up where you want him for the HB/TE that he should cover second, and if his primary target comes out on the field he will move from there to cover the 'wide receiver' because that is what he is now assigned as.

There are two types of defenders in man to man, inside and out. they follow different principles in football.

So,if I understand this correctly, in no circumstance, if you leave either the SS or the FS in Normal alignment and Cover Man only and put his assignment the TE will he line up directly over the TE for coverage? He always starts in his "normal" position?

And if this is the case, is this a new change? Safeties used to line up over the TE all the time with no problems.

Thanks.

Originally posted by mwoods07


And if this is the case, is this a new change? Safeties used to line up over the TE all the time with no problems.

Thanks.


If I'm reading it right, then it means they won't line up over the TE if the TE is the #2 selection.

So if you have it set for FS to cover FB or WR #3, then he will line up over the FB if he is on the field and over WR #3 if he is on the field. If you have him set up to cover WR #3 or FB, then he will line up over WR #3 if he is on the field or where he was placed in the DPC if the FB is on the field.

This is probably the next blitz people are going to complain about
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1839907

I'm going to test a 3-3-5 version of it tomorrow.

Keeping the TE in to block left helps some. Also, I'll have a better version to add tomorrow since I forgot to chose cover man without moving for the SS, so he is actually in the wrong position.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
This is probably the next blitz people are going to complain about
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1839907

I'm going to test a 3-3-5 version of it tomorrow.

Keeping the TE in to block left helps some. Also, I'll have a better version to add tomorrow since I forgot to chose cover man without moving for the SS, so he is actually in the wrong position.

Is that complain worthy, though? It's a 6-man rush; show it to me against a good QB and good pass blocking HB (or at least high vision, I guess) and let's see if it's a sack 10 times out of 10 before I want to complain. If the QB can dump off to a WR sometimes and the HB picks up the blitz right sometimes and moving the TE over helps and sending the HB out on a route helps then maybe it's fine.

Shotgun is pretty much dead, imo. I saw a blitz today that resulted in 6 sacks, and 6 hurries against 13 plays. It worked not quite as well against SB, but close.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
This is probably the next blitz people are going to complain about
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1839907

I'm going to test a 3-3-5 version of it tomorrow.

Keeping the TE in to block left helps some. Also, I'll have a better version to add tomorrow since I forgot to chose cover man without moving for the SS, so he is actually in the wrong position.

That play would get destroyed by SG Screen. You can beat that play if a team abuses it.

Also a better blocking HB would probably pick up the LB'er on occasion (not positive on that one though but I think it would).

Originally posted by Catch22
That play would get destroyed by SG Screen. You can beat that play if a team abuses it.

Also a better blocking HB would probably pick up the LB'er on occasion (not positive on that one though but I think it would).

This doesn't explain the bad blocking scheme (assuming this is a vision check issue). There are 6 possible rushers. 3 of them to the left of the C, 1 in fornt of him and 2 to his right. There are 6 blockers, however only one blocker (LT) went to his left ! In a good blocking scheme 3 blocker should go left on this case.

I would expect to see:
RT takes LDE
RG takes LDE then release to take RILB
C take NT (if he gets RG help, he can release to LILB if needed)
LG looks for LB blitz (first one to get there LILB/LOLB), if known he help the C
LT take the RDE.

No reason for the LG to commit to the NT before at least checking up blitzing LBs. Now if the LILB/LOLB makes it to the LOS toghether and the C is occupied by NT there should be a sack but not like this

Originally posted by tragula
Originally posted by Catch22

That play would get destroyed by SG Screen. You can beat that play if a team abuses it.

Also a better blocking HB would probably pick up the LB'er on occasion (not positive on that one though but I think it would).

This doesn't explain the bad blocking scheme (assuming this is a vision check issue). There are 6 possible rushers. 3 of them to the left of the C, 1 in fornt of him and 2 to his right. There are 6 blockers, however only one blocker (LT) went to his left ! In a good blocking scheme 3 blocker should go left on this case.

I would expect to see:
RT takes LDE
RG takes LDE then release to take RILB
C take NT (if he gets RG help, he can release to LILB if needed)
LG looks for LB blitz (first one to get there LILB/LOLB), if known he help the C
LT take the RDE.

No reason for the LG to commit to the NT before at least checking up blitzing LBs. Now if the LILB/LOLB makes it to the LOS toghether and the C is occupied by NT there should be a sack but not like this


Yeah the LG should being looking for a blitzer from the left prior to helping the center. I think the HB plays his block perfect, no outside rush then helps the middle...

I agree that this should be a sack but it should probably come from one of the ILB'ers

Originally posted by Catch22
That play would get destroyed by SG Screen. You can beat that play if a team abuses it.

Also a better blocking HB would probably pick up the LB'er on occasion (not positive on that one though but I think it would).

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1840530 - TE blocks left so LOLB blitzes
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1842685 - good pick up so offense can counter if it has the right builds

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1840566 - HB picks up LILB
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1842109 - HB picks up LILB
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1843248 - HB picks up LILB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1842658 - TE blocks right. QB gets rid of it but ROLB is unblocked
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1843660

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1843534 - The ROLB doesn't get there but is unblocked. May have been different if faster starter was in at ROLB.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1841815 - screen works here, but I'll show other situations where it doesn't. And remember the SS is in the wrong spot because I forgot to choose cover man without moving. The SS is supposed to be head up with TE between the TE and LOLB.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1842086 - screen
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1006261&pbp_id=1843180 - screen


That was just lucky that there were so many examples in that game. I'm not sure this is an exploit blitz. Defenses have to get pressure somehow, but it may need to be monitored. I'm running a 3-3-5 version with Rhodesia with the FS, ROLB, and MLB blitzing tonight. Hopefully get some examples of it. If not in regular game, there is a scrimmage later that I might talk OC into testing it out (we OC and DC both teams).

Rage, I don't get your point.
When the TE stays to block it is a 7 men blitz against 6 blockers, of course someone will be free.
When the HB stays to block it is 6 on 6 with the offense has a bad blocking situations (only way to really pick it up is the C or HB taking the LILB - this is not an easy read).

It is a heavy blitz that should be countered by play calling. I am not sure that the playbook have a good counter play, maybe one of the TE drag plays or a smash with chekdowns to WR3 and WR2 (HB blocks). The screen didn't work, good work by the DC shutting it with the SS. But that TE need to be able to block.


The only real issue is that the LG should stall a little bit to decide between the LOLB and LILB, and the C should roll for releasing the NT (to the RG) and taking on a blitz.

Originally posted by tragula
Rage, I don't get your point.
When the TE stays to block it is a 7 men blitz against 6 blockers, of course someone will be free.
When the HB stays to block it is 6 on 6 with the offense has a bad blocking situations (only way to really pick it up is the C or HB taking the LILB - this is not an easy read).

It is a heavy blitz that should be countered by play calling. I am not sure that the playbook have a good counter play, maybe one of the TE drag plays or a smash with chekdowns to WR3 and WR2 (HB blocks). The screen didn't work, good work by the DC shutting it with the SS. But that TE need to be able to block.


The only real issue is that the LG should stall a little bit to decide between the LOLB and LILB, and the C should roll for releasing the NT (to the RG) and taking on a blitz.

The LOLB is the farthest off the LOS. in this situation, and should probably be the one that isn't blocked.

If HB stays in, and TE runs route blocking should look like
LOT/RDE or LOT/ROLB
HB/ROLB - HB/RDE
LG/RILB
C/NT
RG/LILB
RT/LDE

If someone comes free, it should be the SS or LOLB if one of them blitzes. Of course that doesn't mean that the OL shouldn't miss vision checks and block it wrong sometimes, and defenders should be able to beat the blocks sometimes as well.

I designed the blitz, so I'm happy it works, but it is a little more effective than I think it should be. It should force teams to hold the TE or HB in to block effectively so other blitzes can be thrown in when they adjust to stop that one. However, it was extremely effective against everything the opponent did.

Of course one of the issues is that I know the other team can't run strong side and they can't send HB on a weak side route out of shotgun.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1005833&pbp_id=2272317 - This is a 3-3-5 version. QB gets it off to HB.